A (COWARDLY?) Lion Among Men | Wicked Book 3 Review and Summary | Deep Themes and Deep Thoughts

Today we continue our coverage of the Wicked 5-book universe by Gregory Maguire with book three: A Lion Among Men, the only book in the series primarily told through the point of view and perspective of an Animal. The “Wicked Years” move forward with spinoff stories covering all the major players in the political upheaval of Oz, and we’re diving into the “real” story of “the cowardly lion.”

Check out our kickoff  “Are Books Political" episode all about why books and reading are inherently political and why it’s not only important to acknowledge this, but to read our favorite books through this lens. We concluded during our subsequent deep dive of Wicked (book one) and Son of a Witch (book 2) that Maguire intentionally uses the fantastical to expertly critique issues like authoritarianism, colonialism, and racism, just to name a few.

In this episode we dive into book three: A Lion Among Men, released thirteen years after Wicked, which follows the life of Sir Brrr, disenfranchised Animal, Oz Sycophant, Dorothy companion, and ultimately a friend to the rebel cause as he grapples with what it means to contain all of these different identities in the politically broken landscape of Oz. 

Who were our favorite and least favorite characters and plot points? Was this book what we expected?  Do we think these books can be separated from politics just because they’re fantasy?  What philosophical questions are posed? And what literary devices does Maguire use to critique things like the use of propaganda by governments to sway public opinion and the subsequent construction of “history?”

Fantasy stories can be so much more than surface level storytelling, and often are. We’re here to discover why! Listen on for our reviews of book three, our deep dive reactions with five sentence summary, and fun facts about the book that started the Wicked phenomena! 

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Check the official Author Interview with Lindsay Straube of Split or Swallow! Now a Barnes & Noble & Amazon best seller titled: Kiss of the Basilisk!  https://youtu.be/fknhocSNIKM

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Chapters

• 0:00 Spoiler Free Intro
• 6:27 A Lion Among Men Book Review
• 13:22 5 Sentence A Lion Among Men Book Summary
• 19:38 Fav and Least Favorite Things in Lion Among Men
• 37:58 Philosophical Questions in Lion Among Men
• 47:37 Political Problems and Themes in Lion Among Men
• 1:02:16 Are You Excited for Out of Oz?
• 1:04:44 A Lion Among Men Book Quotes
• 1:14:44 Wicked Fun Fact!

Transcript

She even catches fire at one point. I had to like put it out and we finally found her and like we got like five minutes. Yeah. 136. How did I I read more than one page. I get it. But I didn't like it. Okay. One.

Welcome to the Best Sees in the Books podcast. I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And today is officially our third deep dive in our Wicked series where we're going to be talking about book three in the Wicked Ears, The Lion Among Men. Ooh, here we are. Here we are. I'm excited to talk about this one because I feel like it was a little bit different from the last two. So, definitely Yeah, we'll get to that here in a little bit. You know, if you guys know, we kicked it off um with our R books political episode. Then we went into obviously covering deep dive for Wicked and then book two, Son of a Witch. Here we are with book three. Just going to keep things rolling. Next week we've got Out of Oz and we're covering the prequel, Elfie, which I have no idea about that at literally whatsoever. Yeah. Going into it completely blind. It's prequel. I'm feel like we're going to be going back to the beginning if you will. Maybe maybe some about Elfie, a little Alphaba, little tiny totie greeny, you know. Maybe. Hopefully it's not too sad. Hopefully it's Oh, I know. Um and then we'll be wrapping it up with, you know, our overall thoughts like we always do with all the movies and, you know, the Broadway play that we were able to see, etc. Obviously, we're really excited that um Wicked for Good's going to be coming out just Are you guys excited? Let us know. Something I want to say. Hey, what's up? If you found this video because you finished A Lion Among Men and is like, "What the hell?" I find that to be a big critique of Well, most of these books, well, not really. Not really Wicked. Wicked. I feel like people kind of it, you get it. But like Son of a Witch, I felt like there was a lot of confusion and kurfuffle when I was looking up people's like reviews of things. And then Lion Among Men, and there wasn't very much talk about it. You know, a lot of people DNF this book. So, we'll be talking about all that in the critiques, too. But hopefully by us going through this with our five sentence summary, our faves and dis faves, dislikes, our like, you know, different things that we'll be talking about today, it helps give you some clarity with this book. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, we'll be like Ashley said going over, you know, basic plot points, etc. What we liked, um, favorite parts, least favorite parts, characters, etc. But we will, you know, like we have in the last couple episodes, talk about, you know, political problems that are brought up and then al also philosophical questions, which I think this one was full of philosophical questions more so. Um, so if that's something that sounds good to you, please stick around. Um, but before we get into that, we just wanted to say thank you so much for being here. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming into this video, taking time out of your day and your book to hang out with us, video or audio, because we are on YouTube for the video or any podcasting platforms you like to listen on into. If you are new here, make sure to like, follow, and subscribe. That way, you don't miss out on future episodes. And welcome. What's up? Did you find this video cuz you are getting hyped about Wicked and you're like, what is this book even about? Have you read it? Have you not? We're going to tell you all of that, but don't worry, the first five minutes, I don't know if we've said it yet, are spoilerfree. So, we'll give you our review, tell you if we think, you know, it's worth the read, what we recommend so far, all of that. And then stick around for that spoiler portion. So, make sure you're following. We're also over on Tik Tok and Instagram at Besties in the Books Podcast everywhere. That way, you get notified when we announce new series that are coming out cuz we're mapping out next year. Baby, if you have any recommendations on what other series you want us to go over, make sure to DM it to us. We're open to suggestions. We are. I know you guys will be excited, I think, about what we chose for the beginning of the year. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, we're still open for a middle and end. So, hey. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Sorry. I have to show you guys my t-shirt. I haven't shown Liz yet because it's so funny. In the front, okay, we always like to wear, you know, some kind of themed shirts, right? So, in the front is just, you know, Galinda's wand and Alphaba's broom. But in the back, let me show you. I'll have to pop in a video so you can see it. But it is, you know, she was in a bubble. The words from that that viral um video years ago. Her sister was a witch, right? And what was her sister? A princess. So cool. That's so cute. It's so funny. I was cracking up when I saw it. I love it. And now we have some clarity, right? So his argument is that she's a princess, right? She came down in a bubble with a crown. He's actually wrong, right? She's not a princess. Glinda is not a princess. So, I just think it's even more funny now how impassioned that man was. He was wrong and he was wrong this whole time. Well, she's many things. I mean, according to this, right, according to the expanded edition of everything, I mean, technically Glenda, no. Has she been a princess? No. But she was temporarily on the throne. So, she wasn't really a queen, but maybe like I don't know what would you call that? Like a queen substitute, queen agent. Not really, but like kind of. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a placeholder. The word princess could be. Yeah. Because So, she's been that she's been a sorceress. She's been she's been a lot of things that Linda Yeah. also Oh, as since we're on the topic of cute wicked clothes, I just wore actually a cute Sanderson Sisters witch shirt that Ashley got me a couple years ago. Um, but it's because I really want to find like some vegan themed Wicked clothes and I could not find anything and I was like, this is crazy. So, if you guys know of anyone who makes any cute like vegan related like animal rights t-shirts, like wicked themed, send them our way because I want one. If you make shirts, hey, could you make me one? That would be amazing, too. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So, anyway, should we get into our spoiler-free star ratings for It is time. The Lion Among Men book three in the Wicked Ears. Let's do it. You go first this time. Okay. Uh, I rated it four stars. Mhm. So, so far, Wicked and Son of a Witch were five stars for me. So, this one got taken down one entire star for a specific plot twist at the end that I didn't like. So, I don't want to give anything away aside from that, but it knocked it down a whole star for me. And um I would say I still really appreciated this book because it did have two like uh timelines going on at once again that I really liked. Um a lot of it's told through flashbacks which I really liked. I felt like this book also filled in a lot of uh filled in a lot of the blanks from the last couple books which was cool. So we did get some full circle moments. However, I did find it a little bit repetitive. um like there was some information that we were getting from different perspectives that I feel like we perhaps did not need more of and I just kind of was like all right why is this in here? Um but mostly I enjoyed it and I felt like as far as length goes I feel like any longer and it would have made me upset about the repetition. So I feel like it was also a fairly good length. It's like under 400 pages I think. Right. It's like 288 or something. Maybe 300 something. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I think the paperback's like 350 or something like that. So, yeah, I felt like it was a good length. Um, so yeah, four stars. Didn't love as much as the other two, but still enjoyable. Yeah. Well, yeah. I rated it a zero. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's a little bit of uh animal sex in it, but nothing explicit. Yeah. Closed door animal sex. Okay. So, what did you rate it? Four stars also. So, now I'm at five stars for Wicked, four stars, Son of a Witch, four stars, Lying Among Men. However, I did like this better than Son of a Witch. Oh, interesting. Because I actually liked the characters more for the first time since reading this series. I actually liked some of these characters better. So, for that reason, I enjoyed it more. It was while similar writing style obviously um for me it was just I don't know a little bit simpler and um it did get mundane in the middle but so do with that what you will but I think if you're looking for some fill-in- thelank moments this is that book. This is definitely a plot filler kind of a book. It's not like a filler book, but it just fills in some of the holes that were leaking in the other books is the best way I could put it. So, that's who I would recommend it for. If you want to continue the series or not, if you're trying to figure that out, if there's some questions you feel like you have unanswered, you want some more clarity on, go ahead and give this book. I definitely don't think you can skip it if you're going to continue out of Oz. But obviously, we haven't read that yet, but I think you're getting some information in there. But there are some unnecessary parts in there, it feels, that are a bit repetitive, like you said. So that's why it's not a five stars. It's not perfect, but I actually really enjoyed it. So yeah. Hey. Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. By repet like by the repetition or repetitiveness. Um I guess what I mean is like I love it when we're getting a story that we've already read but from a different perspective. And I feel like some of the information was literally just like a same recounting the same information. I was like I wanted a different take on it. You know what I mean? If I'm going to read it twice. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. But other than that, pretty good except for that stupid thing at the end we'll talk about later. So far, I feel like these books are not meant to be read um crunch time like Liz and I are doing it back to back to back to back. I feel like this is a series that is not bingeable if you don't need to. Mhm. So, yeah, like maybe like a couple months in between so you don't like forget everything but so that it's not like an overload of like all this information. Yeah. Yeah. If I was not doing this for the podcast now, I am glad we are continuing um because I didn't love it, you know, does love Son of the Witch, but I liked this one better. But like if I would make a suggestion, I would say yeah, exactly that. put a couple months in between because there's so many philosophical and political ponderings, if you will, that you kind of need time to sit and marinate it just on your own. You know, we have to like cram that in to get the information out to you guys and everything. But I think, you know, he had years in between these books. Mhm. Like a lot a lot of years in between them. And I think that that is almost better cuz it's not so painful that you're like, "Oh, what happens? I need to know right now." Oh, cuz you're just getting like build out and build out and build out of an original obviously Wizard of Oz story. So, yeah. Well, you know, like what happens, but you don't It's like all the little details. Well, now I'm curious cuz I know Wicked came out and then 10 years later these started coming out. So, like Son of a Witch came out in 2005 and when A Lion Among Men came out, he had said that that was the end of the trilogy. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Which we'll talk about in the critique section as well. Oh, that came out in 2008. So, it looks like there was three years in between. Yeah. And then, um, when did Out of Oz come out? Cuz Yeah, you'd have three years to digest that information. Mhm. And then Out of Oz came out in 2011. Yeah. So, there's a significant amount of time in between all of these. And then Elfie. Yeah. 17 years later or whatever. Yeah. A while. Um, because Yeah. 11. Yeah. Yeah. So, there's just definitely a lot of time to process like all this information like in between and we're just going like one after the other. So, it's definitely a different experience for sure. Yeah. Mhm. So, I know the times book times are different now, but even still, I wouldn't I'd say the same thing if these came out right now. You know, I do appreciate his like recaps at the beginning of all the books, though. I was like, that's cool. Can all authors do that, please? Yeah. It was especially necessary in this one. I told Liz like the beginning of the paperback. I'm sure the Kindle too. I don't know. I didn't do it. But like it's all like map like literally mapped out all the different families of Oz. So that was a good refresher because there's just like a lot of names and lands involved at this point that it's like a lot. Yeah. There's like family lineage like it's all it's very like you know Game of Thrones level like world building guide so that you aren't confused. Yes, that is. I appreciated that, too. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. So, should we just get into our five sentence summary spoiler section? Let's go. Go on again. If you don't want to be spoiled, we're going to spoil the spoilings right now. So, save it to your playlist and watch later if you're thinking about reading this or if you're in the midst. If you don't mind being spoiled, stick around because hey, we don't go over all the meat in these bones. We don't. We don't. We don't. What did you say the other day? Different b different bones. Same body or same body, different bones. It works either way. Yep. Hey, not a lot of bones and bodies. Listen, it's Halloween. It's Halloween. So, we're being weird. Yep. Here we go. Here we go, guys. All right. Five sentence summary. Listen, I couldn't find the harmonica cuz it is my daughter's and she was playing with it and misplaced it. So, I have a standin for at least this week. So, oh my god. Excited. Great. Okay, here we go. Great. All right. Five sentence summary for a lion among men. After growing up in the forest, completely alone as a baby cub with no family, the lion that Alphaba saved from experimentation, grows up and uses the knowledge that he has been able to gain of language and etiquette from passers by like Jezy, the soldier caught in a trap who he didn't help escape due to his ignorance and loneliness, he ends up traveling all over Oz to try to find his place in society.

one. It doesn't It's a pretend. It doesn't. I know. I'm sorry. I was expecting a different note to come out and it's just one. This is like a fog horn. For those not watching the listeners out there, sorry for your ears, first of all, but second of all, it's like a I don't What the hell is this? It's a plastic children's little trumpet. Trumpet maybe. Yeah. But it only makes one note. I like literally couldn't find any other musical instrument that we haven't used before. So, apologies for the harmonica lovers out there that were, you know, maybe hopefully next week it makes a resurgence. For people that just stumbled upon this video, none of our others are like, "What? Why? Why are we talking about musical instruments at all?" Listen, we have to honor the sentence. Okay, if you know, you know what it is. All right. Okay. Let's go. The lion goes on his first journey to find J's parents to give them his medal of honor after his death. but accidentally comes upon a town under siege because Oz and Munchkin Land are in a civil war where he inadvertently aids in the capture of trolls that are being exploited for their labor and resources. But because of his reputation as a sympathizer to the wizard, he moves to Shiz and becomes a fairly successful art dealer by luck, chance, and the elite class's perception of him.

Two, I keep waiting for that to go somewhere. Yeah, sorry. I usually play it hard, but alas. Okay. The lion ignores all of the anti-anim animal laws enacted around him until he no longer can and is systematically shoved out of human society. He begins his travels again, staying first with some tigers for many years who shun him after he tries to mate with their princess. Then he meets Dorothy and her companions and aids in the quote unquote killing of the wicked witch. finally landing back in the Emerald City where he works with animals and banks to return their money and investments from before their rights were stripped away for a large fee for both himself and the banks.

Three. Mhm. You're doing great. Yeah. Yeah. This one was a little bit easier than uh the last one. So great. Yeah. Um, the Oz government realizes what he's doing, but rather than blame the banks, they scapegoat the lion, who ends up with a plea deal rather than prison time to work as a government informant to go track down Yakal to see if she can lead them to the grim or at a minimum give the government any additional information about the throp sisters or perhaps any challengers to royalty like no and Lear and Lear's child who all have royal claims. And in his uh deep deposition, sorry, and in his deposition with Yakal, the lion recounts his entire life story, while Yakal explains that she was born an old woman with no history whose only purpose seemed to be acting as a quote unquote guardian angel to the Throp sisters. For it was only the green elixir Nanny gave her that gave her powers. And before that, she was just a fraud.

Four. Coincidentally, the time dragon and its traveling burgand, including no, stop by the mir, where it is discovered that the time dragon is merely a diversion to protect the grim, which yakal is absorbed magically back into with the cat, the lion's pet, who we discovered was actually the government informant that sold out Alphaba and Fiero all those years ago, leaving Nor and her group to move on and protect the book while the lion decides which side of history he wants to be on now that he has all of this information. H.

That was pretty good. Ah, saving that. I was saving that. Hopefully it came ac

okay or need a refresher. Whatever. It was good. I feel like it was a pretty to me at least, it was a pretty straightforward story. I think that was why it was easier for me too, you know? Yeah. Yeah, like you there is time hopping, but it was just easier. I think that the lion is just a more simple character, so you don't get as much like you get the thoughts presented to you, but it's not as cumbersome, I guess. Yeah. As like Alphaba's inner monologue is very different. The lion's tone is very different. So, yeah, even I feel like his story is like telling you what happened in his life. It's like an autobiography as opposed to like Yeah. deep philosophical ponderings continuously. Yeah. With flashbacks of people's perspectives and the constant switching because there is switching but it's really just between Lion and Yakalle. Yeah. For the most part. And I mean Yakal's life was also pretty easy to follow. Like it was a little bit like confusing as far as like was she born as an old woman and if so why? Like we had to like obviously piece that together and find out the resolution to that at the end but other than that it was kind of like this is my life. It was also very autobiographical. So, I feel like it was pretty easy. Yeah. Step by step to kind of go through. All right, Liz, what was your favorite and least favorite part of A Lion Among Men? Uh, favorite part. Finding out Yakal was a fraud until she drank the green elixir. What a cool full circle moment. I thought that was because it's like, you know, we're listening to her story and she's like, I was just a lady who like literally showed up from nowhere. I didn't know where I came from. Um, I was essentially born as an old person. Um, and I just had to make a living. So, I started being like they, you know, they wanted me to be the old crone and the witch and the, you know, sorceress. So, that's what I pretended to be. And people paid me money for it. So great. And then she has Nanny come visit her to try to get this, you know, antidote to give to Molina so that, you know, Nessa Rose isn't born green. and she ends up drinking some of that green elixir and that makes her an actual um oracle or whatever you want to consider her to be a magical person. Yeah. So, I did love that. I also liked that we finally figured out where Nor has been this whole time. Um even though I felt like she did not really have her heyday. So, I'm hoping that out of Oz we get a lot more of Nor's story because she sounds like a badass. Yeah. Yeah. She sounds super interesting. So, yeah. I like that yakle with the green elixir and everything and then we find out with the grimy. It's like like calls to like that's what it feels like. You know that vibe like it all magnetizes together. Yeah. Mhm. Um what was your favorite part? That yakle won't die. I loved it. I just thought it was so funny. Uh the whole beginning sequence, I was literally laughing out loud because I'm like cuz it was again such a different tone shift cuz there are some like comical moments throughout the other books even as sarcastically or as ironically as they are. I do think that Gregory Magcguire does have a fun sense of humor you know especially if I see them on the interviews and stuff. So I think we get more of that sense of humor in some things in a lion mugman especially with Yakal's plight and her character. So, I loved that. She's just like, "I just want to die. It's my time. I'm sick of this shit." And like, "Let me they they will put the old ones down in like a cellar is what I'm imagining of the mantry or wherever they are with like some wine and some candles and some she even catches fire at one point. They have to like put it out." And so they put her down there and she's like, "Okay, peace out, girl scout. Bye, cruel world. I'm leaving." Well, then she is in there for over a year because there's supposed to be about a year that they go in. They open back up the crypt essentially. And then she freaks the girl out that comes to like check on something because she's still alive, but she's like even worse looking now and scary and terrifying. And then she drags herself to the top of the stairs and the lion happens to be there. I just everything was so funny about that. Yeah. No, it was funny. Although I will say the tone for Yakal's character was very different in this book. And I thought that was kind of interesting because up until this point she was very like secretive cloak and dagger one word spoken here and there like a prophecy and then nothing else. And now she's just like freaking chatty Kathy like the whole time which I thought was really fascinating. I didn't die. I just want to [ __ ] just tell it all. Yeah. Just give it all away now. Who cares? I mean, we find out, too, that um Cherry Stone literally came to interrogate her and poked her eyes out, so that's why she's blind. So, it's like maybe she's like, "At this point, I don't care anymore. I'll just tell you." And she sees that the lion isn't actually much of a threat. She gets him to tell a story pretty fast. So, I think that maybe she sees some hope in him, too. Yeah. You know, I mean, she we find she's essentially a conduit for the grim, so she's not in entirely guided by her own free will, you know. So, I think there's something going on there as well. I mean, we know Yeah. I mean, she gets literally sucked back into the book at the end. So, yeah. you know, cuz we were wondering like was she really born as an old person or did you know like the lion said like did you have something happen to you like a stroke and you have amnesia and you don't know anything and then for a while she was even like am I related to them like and yeah so it was kind of nice to get some resolution with that where it's like no you literally are a magical being you got sucked back into this book like yeah see that's so funny cuz you're like the cat is the twist to me I They didn't care about the cat. To me, Yakalle was the twist. Yeah. I mean, but we always knew there was more going on with Yak. Yeah. But like that essentially like the book birthed her basically, you know, created her in a way. Like that's crazier to me than just a spy cat. Spy cat. Okay. Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely liked that twist, too. But we'll just get into my least favorite part cuz we're talking about it right now. Yeah. I just put the stupid cat. I was so annoyed by this because I was like, I don't like that after all this time has gone by essentially like the leader/marter of the revolution, Alphaba, right, and her lover Fiero both are, you know, killed. Mhm. At this point, 20 years ago or something like that, right? And we find out the mystery of how this went down. And it's literally just like a freaking undercover cat. Like her cat was like an undercover agent for the government. I hate that. I hated it. I was so mad. I was like, And he's still an undercover agent, but now he was posing as the Lions kind to be an informant. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like if he got they took him, Yak was like, "Give me that cat." And sucked him into the grim. The problem. Yeah. So that's cool. But I was like, I don't like the like the political subturf that been going on was literally just like this cat. I'm like, really? It disappointed me. I didn't like it after all that. Yeah. I mean, it's a symbolism of surveillance, I would say. Yeah. Because they did always know like, you know, the government did always kind of know what was going on for the most part. And so, they just didn't have um the cat wasn't in the right place anymore. So, they didn't know what was going on anymore. So, they had to, you know, figure it out, send the lion. Well, I mean, yeah. And I definitely thought about that too because not only is it government surveillance, but it's government surveillance by the very people that like were or animals, whatever you want to call them, species that was being exterminated by the government. So that's like a also a insidious. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. So I get it, but I didn't like it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Fair. Absolutely. For sure. But that's why to me cuz I didn't like care about it. I was like, "Okay, yeah, whatever." And I moved on. But I loved your reaction last night. I was so pissed. Okay, so what was your least favorite part then? Um I just felt like it got a little mundane in the middle honestly like cuz he kind of you know the lion kind of you took over the conversation as it will and just kept talking about oh and then this happened in my life that sucked. Yeah. Yeah. He had some shitty shitty situations, some shitty shitty bang bangs. But uh so it it just got a little monotonous for how and also the fact that like this is the shortest book I think of the series minus Elfie and like I think you can agree with me that it just wouldn't end. So yeah, it was kind it was weird. I think it was like also messed up on Kindle too. So I feel like I would it's like you said I'd read 50 pages and I would be no closer to finishing. I'd be like what's going on? Oh I forgot I did switch halfway through Kindle. So yeah, it feels you don't sometimes you don't realize it. You're on Kindle and it'll just it'll be like page, you know, 130 for like five pages. So you'll be like reading reading reading. Okay, how far am I now? 136. How did I I read more than one page? Like what the hell? Yeah. So last night when I thought I had like 50 more pages left, I had five pages. Like, so it messed me up totally. So I'm like, okay, we still got a long way to go. But it's really discouraging. You're like, I'm not getting It's like It's like those dreams where you're running and you're not going anywhere. Going anywhere. Yeah, totally. I know. So, that might contribute to it for sure. As it should be so much shorter, too, cuz the way the spacing was in that the Kindle version as well with like the conversation, you know, all the dialogue. Yeah, for sure. And the paragraph breaks. So, yeah, I for it felt like it took me the longest to read this one, which doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, same. So, that's one of my least favorite parts. Could be a Kindle problem because I was going pretty through it pretty fast when it was a paperback. So, I think it has to do with the e-reader. Yeah. But alas, who was your favorite character? I put no one really. Um, if I had to choose one, I'd choose No, but she was very minor in this. But it's like I just want to know more about No,

literally like I've been wanting that since she went missing. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, when I was reading critiques of this book, that was definitely one of them that it's like there's been a lot of buildup to like where is Nor? Like literally that's all book two was about was like we were trying to find no and we finally found her and like we got like 5 minutes stuff and that would have been hard though to have her enter the chat sooner because these are like more flashbacks and more plot filling you know. Yeah. So I'm sure she's going to be a lot in the next book. I hope that the next book is her book because like think about it like she's royalty. Like I think you know it would be really interesting if um the next book was basically about who comes to power because we have a bunch of players that do have rightful um you know what is the word I'm looking for? Claims to the different thrones but they're all kind of like in the underground right now. So yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. What about you? Favorite character. Oh, Yakle of the whole series so far. I love that she's sarcastic and snarky in this book and it's just so funny. So, loved her. Yeah, it was great. I did also like, you know, special shout out. I don't remember their names, but the two old animals that um Burr finds in the woods or whatever. And, you know, it's the very uh Mr. Frog and Mr. Toad vibes, you know. So, I loved just reading their entire like the way they banter together and it's just just a cute relationship that they have and then they brought in the lion and then he goes and he helps them get some of their money back and stuff. Even though he ends up, you know, not good for him, it was I loved it. It was great. Yeah. Yeah, it was good little side story for sure. Yeah. What about your least favorite character? The lion. Oh, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I feel like, you know, we'll talk about this later on, but he represents a lot of different things, a lot of different people, a lot of different philosophies. Um, so I feel like his character was very important and it achieved what it was supposed to um through his actions and symbolism. However, that did not make me like him anymore. So, yeah, for sure. Yeah. What about you? Yeah, it's just like everybody sucks again, you know, so it's hard to pick one who sucks the most. Yeah, because I actually liked the lion better somehow than Lear. Um, but I just think it's because I give him grace cuz like, you know, he's an animal like how to figure out how to talk, you know, how to converse. So, I did really like hearing his story from that perspective. I just thought it was uh interesting. So, I don't want to give it to him. Um, for me, so nobody I mean, everybody sucks. Um, everybody sucks. How about the um I I'm curious about Allaric, but you know, at least he pulled him out and gave him an option, but what's going on there? You know, I do have a lot of unanswered questions still with characters. Not even I don't know. Like, what's going on with Shell? Like, what is up with that? Yeah. What's going to happen with No, where's Lear and the green child? Like how are they in hiding? I still don't like Candle, but I can't give it to her because she's not in this book. I was going to say she's not even in it. She's mentioned about it very briefly. Yeah. What happened with that? But that was weird that Yakal kind of orchestrated that situation. Mhm. So yeah, is there a green child? You know, like a resurrection of Alphaba in a way, you know, the uh I thought about that, too. Is it like being reincarnated? Yeah, totally. Well, you know, but like in symbolism. Yeah. Yeah. Is it that or is it literally just a child? But either way, like, you know, they would have a claim to different Yeah. powers even if like she's not some type of special, you know, being. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, something I just thought was depressing that I want to say is that, you know, like we always joke about cuz they're fantasy readers. Oh, I love I would love to live in like this fantasy land, have magic and superpowers and stuff for this realm of oz that we are discussing and their amount of magic that they have and the corruption and the terribleness and the reflections on what is actually going on in our real life society. This is so the bootleg magic system in Fantasy Land that we would get if we had it. If we had magic here. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, I do. It would just It would just be like wielded for Yeah. It would just be probably co-opted and wielded for nefarious purposes like everything else. I think that's kind of the point, right? Like all like, "Oh, cool. We get animals that talk. Oh, they're being snuffed out. Oh, they're being restricted from access to things that we have. Like, oh, it's so cool like this. Oh, this sucks. Like, oh, it's, you know, that's what I'm saying is like, oh, there's dragons. Oh, they're being used as essentially like slaves for the government to kill people. Cool. Like, this is what we would get. This is what this is the place that we would be. So, I don't want to wish for it anymore cuz we'd be in freaking Oz. And I don't like Oz anymore. That's a question. Do you like Oz still? I mean, just has as many problems as we've got here. I think that's kind of the point, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. H So, with that said, how did this book make you feel? Um, I feel like this book maybe like I think like how did it make me feel? It made me feel a little bit more like I had to really think about the lion's character because I feel like in the previous books, the themes were like pretty obvious and just like out in your face. In this book, I think a lot of what they were trying to say was through the lion's life and like the symbolism of like all the different stages of his life and how he was choosing to act with the information that he had. M um so I had to really like pick apart a lot of his actions to figure out the more political themes than like in the past where it was just like right in your face. So it made me feel like I had to dig a little bit deeper and kind of like decode a little bit more, but that didn't bother me. Um and obviously I think that all of that was intentionally done by Grace McGuire as well. So yeah. Yeah, I appreciated um the it wasn't as repetitive in the overall book series. It didn't feel repetitive in that way because we had a tone shift and a perspective shifts obviously. We're still time hopping. We're still like that's all the same, but it just felt so different. But yeah, exactly that like that wasn't so in your face. You had to kind of think about his actions and what he was labeled as and his character and how he navigated the world and see the reflections on well that and that's what happens to people too you know. Mhm. Yeah. There's kind of try it's almost like you're just trying to survive you know and these are the ramifications of doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. No good deed goes unpunished. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Going off of that, was this book what you expected it to be? No, because a different tone. Yeah, different pacing shift than the others, but I, like I said, I liked it. So, was it what you expected? I mean, I expected it to be about the lion's life. So, in that way, yes. But then in the way, no, because I didn't expect it to reveal so much about Yakal's character. Yeah. That was like a side like, oo, cool. Okay, we get to finally find out like what's going on with this uh like oracle who has been present since the beginning with essentially no clarification or answers up until now. We're like who is this lady? Why does she know so much? Like what part is she playing in this overall scheme? And so that was a surprise and I did like that. But other than that, yeah, I feel like it pretty much was what I thought it was going to be. Yeah, I kind of expected it to be like a lion among men. So, I thought it was going to be more about taking down the man from the inside, but I actually kind of liked that Gregory really leaned into the cowardly aspect of the lion, you know, and how that can show up and how he we'll talk about some stuff like this in a minute, but like how it was labeled and what happened when you're being labeled that. So, I actually really liked that because, you know, like I felt like it was going to be like some secretive, well, he's labeled a lion, a cowardly, but then he's actually like doing all this stuff, you know, but no, he was he was cowardly lion, you know, so and then what happens when you're when you do that? So, yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. Well, to say about him. Yeah. What are three philosophical questions that are examined in this book that you found interesting? You said you had a lot. Um I Yeah, I did have a lot. I kind of had to like narrow it down a little bit. Uh my first one was how important is language in the creation of his history? So, we talked about this in previous ones, too, but I felt like it was really important in this book in particular. One of the things that I noted was that depending on who you were asking or who was talking about it, some people were referring to the laws banning animals um from essentially being part of human society in all the ways, right? Some people would refer to those laws as the animal adverse laws. Some people would refer to them as the animal courtesy acts. So it's things like that where it's like, you know, obviously Gregory McGuire is doing that intentionally. That wouldn't be a mistake or an oversight. It's how something that starts off as the animal adverse laws, right? which is like obviously has that very like inherent implication that we are against animals capital A assimilating into our society and having all the same rights as us. Um, but if the politicians are calling it or even, you know, the news media, whoever are calling it the animal courtesy acts, that puts a completely different spin on the exact same grouping of laws that are restricting animals from um having rights. So, there's that. Also, there was um humans intentionally baiting animals, capital A, with books in the forest that the bears talk about. Mhm. Yeah. So, reading for animals has been banned. Um, so just to have a full circle moment with that. Um, and so they're preventing that, you know, dissemination of information intentionally putting books in the forest so that animals will gravitate towards them and they can capture them. Yeah. Yes. And then lastly, just one more thing that I noticed um is that when the lion is kind of grappling with these ideas, he says, "Under a green bay tree, he stretched out thinking if even the ghost of the past can harbor a motivation to disassemble, where can any ignorant lion sensibly place his trust?" So, it's this idea that like he no long he's unlearning a lot right now as he's growing up. And so he's looking back and thinking like nothing that I thought was true is true. So if I can't even trust history, then what can I trust? Mhm. And so it's the same thing that all boils down to the the question of how important is language in the creation of history. So that was a big one for me. Yeah. Heavy stuff man. You want to go back and forth? Sure. Yeah. So for me I had put you know wicked we are often discussing good versus evil and are people born wicked and everything like that but I was thinking a lot about with the lion being labeled cowardly by everyone in society um what labels do to members of society and how it affects their actions you know and how people can almost fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. Yeah. Almost like you said with Yak too. Well, people are labeling me as this, so I'm just going to do that. You know, it worked out for her, but is it working out for the lion? Really, not so much. You know, he's going about his life and making these decisions. And then, um, you know, it because he's labeled something negatively, it messes with him a lot. So, yeah, just the labeling of different groups and people in general and individually. He's trying to outsmart a system that's intentionally built to keep him down. Yeah. And I think it takes a while for him to even begin to understand that. Right. He's doing the things. He's working within the system. He's rising up as much as he can, but yet he keeps on getting shoved back down repeatedly for a lot of different reasons. And so it kind of also brings up that idea of like can we reform a broken system or do we have to completely dismantle it and rework the entire thing for it to actually work for everyone, right? So it's a the master's tools will not dismantle the master's house situation. At least that's how I read it because that made sense to me. No matter how hard he tries, he'll never really be able to achieve um the level that he wants to get at because he's not a human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I put for my second one, is choice real or is it an illusion? Oh, well.

Yeah. Um and that became really apparent in the conversation that he was having with the two animals in the woods that you were talking about a little while ago. So, the quote that I had pulled out was um we didn't have to leave, said Mr. Mo. I did teach history, young Sir Burr, and I know that much. We could quite as freely have chosen to go to prison. You know, the option was never denied us. So, we are considered to have departed of our own valition. So, they're able to say these animals are choosing to leave when really the options were leave or be thrown in a prison. Mhm. Yeah. So, how much choice really is that, you know? Yeah. And they're not leaving to be in some grand beautiful like, you know, place. It's famine and drought,

right? With no access to any of your previous resources that you have because they took them away from you. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. That was my next thing. You just say it so much more eloquently. So,

um, but basically the same question. Yeah. Illusion of choice. How real is choice? Yeah. Mhm. Um Okay. So then my next one is um is stupidity or ignorance just as dangerous as the opposite which they in the book call cleverness. So yeah, this idea that what's more damaging, what's more dangerous? um you know being like the lion and having to kind of be naive and work your way through a world not really knowing because he's doing a fair amount of damage as well. Yeah. Um he's not just you know failing personally but he's causing a lot of domino effects to happen that are damaging to other people too and animals obviously as well. Um so yeah is stupidity is dangerous as cleverness. M. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. There was a quote in there something about something like that. I didn't write it down though. Yeah. Deep thoughts. Deep thoughts. Um I think the topic which I haven't gone too much over in my head but just the factor of destiny and kind of free will which I know is kind of like choice but with the grimaries involvement of what's going on. you know, are they destined to overthrow this government that's happening? What's going to what's going to go on with that? So, those are kind of the questions that I came to when I was reading stuff more because the grim is starting to take on um sentient persona, you know, where is it from? Is it from this earth? Is it from a different one or planet? You know, yeah, I actually put a quote down here from Yakal's perspective. I just labeled it Yakal's philosophical crisis. Yeah, it says, "The circularity of influence was like a trail of dominoes falling in four dimensions. Each time one slapped another and fell to the ground, from a different vantage point, it appeared knocked upright, ready to be slapped and fall again. Everything was not merely relative. It was, how to put it, relevant, representational, revealing, referential, and reverential both." So yeah, it's kind of that that same idea like what is influencing what and I liked that like imagery of like the dominoes falling but in four dimensions. Yeah. So it's just like everything is like affecting everything but like outward. It's like the you know it's butterfly effect. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then of course all everything we've talked about in all of the other books so far, all the other themes are still present in this one as well. Like where you're born, who you're born to, you know, family, royalty, lineage, how will those play affect and who you are as a person, nature versus nurture, all of those things are still at play, of course. For sure. Yep. Yeah. I did put an honorable mention in here that was do things look more blink bleak as we age because we see and know more because things are actually worse. So um cuz he says everything now looked as seedy as he felt. He didn't know if this was the aging process the retreat from in I don't know it means innocence but I don't know how to pronounce this word or if the university was falling on hard times. So, it's like he's literally back in Shiz looking at everything around him and it's just like the rosecolored glasses have been pulled off and he's like, "Are things crappier or am I just older and no more?" Like, or is it both, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Things that we often ask ourselves. Yeah, exactly. All right. What about political problems that you've seen brought in this book? Mhm. I feel like this one a big theme was wealth disparity and privilege. Um and with a side note of disenfranchising entire populations until it's convenient to return them to the workforce for government gain. Yeah, specifically

specifically. Sorry. With with freaking SNAP benefits being dismantled right now and our health insurance going up, I'm kind of freaking out. I don't know if this is like a great time to read these books, but hey. But hey, all important discussions.

Hey. Um, yeah. So I put famine and drought. So it's used as famine and drought while sometimes uh just nature and unavoidable how its roles play in land grabs and control of the people and the populace. Well, yeah. And it's like also that idea that yes, natural disasters do happen, droughts happen, like you know. Yeah, for sure. But that doesn't mean that we don't still have enough resources to distribute to all the people in the world that need them. It's the hoarding is the problem. Mentioned many times how Oz the city is living in luxury, you know, high life, diverting water, you know, Yeah. Yeah. Same same old same old. Yeah. And to go back to the point of, you know, disenfranchising entire populations. So the quote was, "Let him be rehabilitated as a common citizen and join the animal workforce that loyal Oz hoped would soon be returning from exile. Those who hadn't been exterminated, that is, bring back the animals as a backup labor resource. Show the agitated mill workers they could be let go if they made trouble." So it's also like again that same idea that I mean just the way that he put it like bring back you know bring back the animals to join to basically create this discord between the farmers and the animals again so that they're infighting but then they all have more workers to produce more resources for the Emerald City or what have you. Um yeah it's like around and around we go. Yeah, that's how I mean that's how the lion ends up basically doing these like deals with the like he basically tells the animals, right? Like let's get you some of your money back. Like I feel like everyone can win here. So the banks are taking like let's say you've got you know 100% of the money that is due back to these animals. Well, he's taking a 15% cut is basically the middleman. The banks are taking what was it? It was a crazy amount, too. Like they were only getting 20% of their original or something like that. Crazy. Well, they're like, "Oh, well, better than nothing. I'll take Well, yeah. They would just have nothing literally like they were stripped of all of their rights and had no money or investments anymore. So, let's say the banks were taking 50%, the lion's taking 15%, right? They're getting the rest of it. They're happy to just get anything back. The lion feels like he's doing the right thing. But then what ends up happening? this is working for everyone until the government finds out and they say no more and then they might Yeah. And you might be sending it to help, you know, start a war. Yeah. Exactly. And you're helping, you know, those that we don't want to get help. Yeah. Um and so basically like empowering, they're in a civil war, so he's empowering the other side, quote unquote, right? He's um being tried for treason. That's what, you know, they're saying he's doing. But yet none of the banks that are making 50% off of all of these transactions are held accountable at all. So, yep. Hello. Well, that brings me to my next point. Corrupt banks and money systems especially used to suppress certain populations. So you're talking about um you know their involvement of that and how they're not held accountable and I am more focusing on this point about you know that they're they're also involvement on taking the money and hoarding it you know and taking it away from the animals and freezing their accounts and their responsibility with that too. So of course the government's not going to do anything cuz they're the government ends the banks. The government is the money, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's even a quote here that he says, "Naturally, some of us get accused of treason for no reason. Others who deserve it waft free is a bubble on the breeze. Go figure." Yeah. Let that sink in for a sec. My second one is not to act as to act two, which is a quote actually. Um, Nor brings up this point, and I think this is a like kind of the only point of her character in this book really. Um, she says, "I worked with the underground vigilantes who struggle against the tyrant on the throne of the Emerald City, our emperor apostle, until I learned that in the service of their honorable goal, they're capable of actions as dishonorable as the emperors. Then I gave myself up for lost." So she's basically like, "Yeah, I was working with the resistance, but they're doing a bunch of effed up stuff, too. So now I'm just like a free agent floating along, protecting the grim, just doing my best to survive type of thing." Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. So, not to act is to act to. Um I feel like, you know, she they're really kind of trying to debate and I feel like we've talked about this in the past with Pierro kind of having that same standpoint like at what point is, you know, the violence not worth it because you're doing the same wrong things that you're like quote unquote oppressor is doing, right? Um, and so Nor says, let's see, there is a fourth child at the base of the hill who can read the weather enough to know that lightning is likely. The child can rush forward to chase all of the others off the mound and she risks being killed in the process. If that brave child is slain by lightning and is stolen fate at work, but the other children's lives have been altered. History has been vexed by the intercession of a bit player, it is what we hope for and what we dread, too, isn't it? So, it's this idea that it's not just like people on either side, but there are other options as well and other people doing other different things that can affect like the overall outcomes. And so, it um it's her way of saying like we can't just have black and white thinking, I think. Yeah.

I'm depressed. Um political espionage. Yep. Just that just that trust me. Okay. Like who can you trust, you know, at that point? You know, this [ __ ] glass cat. It's even the glass cat. Like can't trust no one. So that's hard. It feels like you're working uphill, you know, just as Norah is. You know, you not working uphill, but like, you know, I get what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Um, my last one was were also quotes from No. She says, "The matter the battle, the serer the peace." So, but then she says, "I don't know if that's quite right." She says, "The louder the cannon, the deafer the peacemakers." Oh, interesting. Yeah. And I was like, hm. Okay. So, we need to unpack that. So, she didn't know if this was true. She wrote to ask herself questions. Was there any reason that peace should ever be sane? Perhaps war was too mad an endeavor for the world to survive intact. Perhaps its aftermath was always corrupted.

Mhm. Well, so and then as kind of like a side tangent to that, Yakle responds with the smallest indivisible part of a nation worth defending is not a field, a lake, a city, an industry, but a child. So, in in this case, obviously, we're talking about um you know, Lear's child, right? Because we're thinking like, okay, is this child like a prophecy or we're talking about Alphabo when she was a child with this intervention from Yakal happening? But I think that she was really saying a lot there in regards to

the smallest indivisible part of a nation worth defending is not right are like physical resources. It's not industries. It's not money. It's not any of those things, but it's children because they're the ones who eventually will grow up and become part of that workforce or continue to perpetuate population growth or decline. Um, that's why it's so important to control populations of people. At least that's what I got out of that. Um, and I found that pretty f or pretty interesting, but also like very symbolic, too. Mhm. Any last words on me? No, I'm just depressed.

No, it's okay. It's all right. It's okay. It's all It's all the things. It's all the things we've been discussing this whole series. So, hey, there we go. But yeah, I think all of these political actions that are so obvious. Also, we have to less us not forget the hope that these movements squash amongst the people and the animals in this case, right? When you have when you have this informant that is working on the inside and that you find out that has been informant the whole time, that little bit of hope getting chipped away that you can overthrow these powers that be, you know. Mhm. So, the power of hope and the power of what's the opposite of hope, you know, despair. Despair. The power of despair and how it's being used. Oh, man. Mhm. So, that being said, what did you feel like was the role that the lion's character specifically played in this book? Because obviously, in my opinion, that was like greatly important to all of the themes. Yeah. I mean he per purpose he was kind of like a poster child. You can work as hard if not harder than the next guy down the road but you will never be one of us. You will never fit in. You will always be ostracized and you will be kicked out literally. But like you know so he's you know his reputation precedes him everywhere that he goes. And so he sometimes often doesn't go to certain places because he's worried that they're going to know about him. But at the end of the day, like he's being used also by Oz to like let him let him get built up a little bit and then we're going to squash him. So again, that beacon of hope and he's thinking, "Oh, hey, maybe if I can do it, you know, it'll be okay. I can pass by." And it's like, "No, you cannot." Yeah. It's like a do not pass go. Yeah. It's like a build yourself up, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but you know, that's like the myth of meritocracy, right? is where we're getting at with that. Yeah. I had put um he hadn't yet had enough experience with humans to know that the thing they hold dearest to their hearts, the last thing they relinquish when all else is fading is the consoling belief in the inferiority of others.

So, hey, but on the flip side of that, I feel like it was also important to see the lion as a symbol of complicity because he was Yeah, that too. complicit in a lot of the atrocities that were happening because he saw himself as somehow special or different um and above that and I feel like that was also important even to the bitter end where he's working as a government informant to get himself from you know out of having to go to jail because of the connections that he previously had right like that's it um so I feel like that is even a really important piece. It's like makes it more of a both and situation is like him realizing these things as he's getting older as well. Yeah. Mhm. Cuz not only is he just trying to survive, but he's also just trying to better his own life, but not realizing that his actions are affecting everything that's happening. And that goes for everybody involved in this book and in life, you know. Well, yeah. I mean, and he's like like Yeah. He's try. He's I'm going to be one of the these people at the balls. I'm going to be one of those people. So, I have to have those same, you know, principles as them. And fake it to make it. Fake it to make it. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it even says here, he had inadvertently advanced the wizard's plans in the emerald trade by helping to squaltch the spontaneous labor revolt, but he still sees himself in a lot of ways as like innocent, like as a, you know, wrong place, wrong time kind of a thing. And it says here too that he doesn't even really understand that he was receiving undue advantage after that because they were giving him by they I mean you know the higherups or whatever who were choosing to turn their the other way when he was doing these other things in Oz or in Shiz because of the fact that he did inadvertently help their cause. Mhm. By like what happened in Trump or whatever for example. Yeah. Um yeah. So there was that. I'm like, what else? Oh, there was also this idea that he says, you know, how old am I now? I earned the right to a decent life, right? Like this idea that like, can you earn your way to a decent life? Like, or does it have a lot to do with what you brought up before? Where are you born? What circumstances are you born into? Does it really have not much to do with anything else at the end of the day? Yeah.

Okay. Well, with that said, with that said, do you think that fictional fantasy books can be political? Oh, yeah. Like just based on this book. Yeah. Just based on this book alone. Oh, I think so. Yeah, that's pretty much like what it's getting at the whole time. Yeah. If you want to hear more, listen to our first kickoff episode, Our Books Political. Are you excited though for Out of Oz? I am because so far in my opinion, Nor has been the most interesting character of this whole entire series and I would like a book about her. Yeah. If book four is not about No, then I'm No, I'm going to be mad at throwing in the fire. Yeah, but like honestly like Yeah, I would like to see more about No. I want to know what Lear Lear has going on. Like where's he at? I don't really care. More about No. Lear's lurking. Yeah. Greeny's greening. Yeah. Yeah. Candle could get burnt for all I care. Yeah. No one cares about Candle. She can go away. But we do want to know obviously more about the baby. So, who's now what? Probably like 10, something like that. So, yeah. Mhm. Interesting. I am excited to read the next one. Yeah. What about you? Yeah. Good. Yeah. Now I am. Mhm. Mhm. Yep. This book made me more excited. So, because now I think we're getting maybe not as many flashbacks. Now we're getting the future. I feel Mhm. like what happens next? That's kind of what I've been waiting for. Like we've been in this time frame of roughly 30 years, you know, back and forth, but it's like now what's happening after like let's get to some stuff, some resolution. Let's go. And we probably knowing the way things are going, we will not have resolution. So, I'm just going to make sure I understand that going into it because that's life. Yeah, those unanswered questions all the time. But maybe some maybe something different. Like I'm done. I got I got this part. I got these 30 years down. I get it. I think I think um are we going to get a happily ever after? No. However, we might get a lot of resolution. So that's different, right? I think happily ever after and a resolution are two different things. So I think that we might get a significant amount of resolution at least in regards to the characters. Um, probably not the political system, but who knows? Maybe Gregory McGuire will throw us bone and give us some good news. Yeah, maybe he has it all figured out and it's just a manual. Yeah. Hey. Oh, all we had to do is read How to Oz this whole time. Great. Yeah. Great. Seems unlikely, but I am excited to read it. So, hey. Yeah, there's that. All right. Well, you've blessed us with a lot of quotes. Is there any other quotes you would like to make sure to mention? Let me look. Yeah, I tried to kind of like weave them in. Um, yeah, I think beautiful. Oh, there was a couple things I wanted to mention. Um, I did like, and I don't have any quotes from this because I feel like it was just woven throughout the whole entire book, but there was a lot of cage imagery. Um, specifically having to do with the lion cuz, you know, he would have like cage flashbacks to when he was a cub. he felt like, you know, um he was somewhere, I can't remember where now, where he felt like he was put in a cage again. Um and so I thought that was really important. Um just the symbolism of like even when you're free, are you working within the constraints of some type of cage, right? Yeah. Most people I think would probably say that they are. Um the other thing was when So they're in the middle of a civil war right now, right? Right. We didn't see a ton of the war happening, but Munchkin Land is still its own sovereign state or whatever you want to consider it to be. But right now, Oz is trying to reanex it. So, they're having a civil war. So, at one point, they describe the noise as men roaring like beasts. And I was like, that's really symbolic, too, when the whole point of this, right, is to dehumanize animals, to take away their rights, but then at the end of the day, it's the human men that are causing war and fighting like beasts. So, yeah. Yeah, that was pretty. And you really see that now that you mention it, we haven't talked about it yet, how all the animals are living together in harmony for the most part. Yeah. are having if they have interpersonal or like clan issues, they're like working it out. It's not causing like this insane like they're not having civil wars all over the place. Yeah. Like the birds in the last book, they're all different types of birds. I mean, they are separating themselves from the animals lowercase, you know, but the one animals uppercase, they're all working together no matter what, you know, species of bird it is. So, and then um they're weary, you know, and they're cautious. some of the like, you know, tribes that he comes across, they want to make sure that he's safe, but you know, it's like you, you know, so you see that Yeah. You see how humans are not very humane? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Who are the real quote unquote animals used as a derogatory term here? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. So, do you have any other notable quotes? Oh, I love this one. Okay. I don't put much faith in a magic book. For everything that is revealed, more is concealed. I did. Yeah, that was a good one. I So, they're referencing the grimy and you know how what that can represent in this world is just like we just we need to wait for the magic man or the magic book or the magic being to come and save us all. So, we don't really need to worry about all these things. It's fine. you know, instead of acting in the here and now. So, yeah. What is it? Nothing is still doing something. Yep. Cuz you're just waiting. Or even the cowardly lion in his instance, like, well, it's not his problem, you know? It's not he can't change all these things. Or so many characters that we discuss. Um cuz what power do they have? And it's like, well, it's it's thoughts like that. It's actions or lack thereof actions like that that keep the powers that be in place. You know, the future reshapes the memory of the past in a way. It recalibrates significance. Some episodes are advanced, others lose purchase. Mhm. It's why it could be a heavy book at times cuz it's just like, whoa man. Whoa. Man, dude. Yeah. Seen a lot all the time. Doesn't he doesn't turn it off. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we're saying at the beginning like you know if you could take your time with these books it would be better for your mental health. Maybe gives you time. Yeah. Digest everything. Sit back and think about it. Um I have a funny one when you're ready when you're done with your heavy ones. We'll leave a good one. I'm done. I think I pretty much like wo them all in. So yeah, go for it. From my favorite yakle. Waking up was a daily cruelty, an affront, and she avoided it just by not sleeping then. Yeah, I I like that, too. Where she was like, I just won't sleep. It's fine. Yeah. Cuz every time I wake up, it's worse. Yeah. Here I am still dealing with this. Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, would you say positive or negative contribution in the canon? I think positive for sure. Very thoughtprovoking. Yeah. Positive. Even if it is a bummer. Yeah. It was a bummer. Yeah. I mean, hey, fortunately, that's how we critique things. Yeah. And did you look up any critiques about book three? I looked up a few actually this time. Or did you have any of your own critiques from book three? Just a little bit of mundaness in there, but it is what it is. Um, I just, yeah, I saw a lot of people just straight up not like this book and a lot of DNFS. Mhm. 3.35 overall stars on Goodreads for almost 2000. Yeah, that's a that's one of the worst overall stars we've heard, I got to say. Especially for like Yeah, not a cringy. Most cringies are over that though cuz it's like what you're signing up for, right? I wrote down a couple of one stars. Um, and some people said some parts made sense, so they felt like it didn't make a lot of sense. I disagree, but that's all right. This felt like when you're trying to get an essay word count up, just repeats mostly the same things read in the first and second book. So, I think we could kind of agree with that one. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone said, "I have to be honest, I had to slog through about half of this book and then gave it up." So, yeah, there was a lot of critiques on the monotony and the repetitiveness, I would say. What did you find? Yeah, same thing. Um, people seem to be generally happy that it did fill in some blanks and give some answers. However, um, still left a lot of things unanswered. And I did find a lot of people who were upset that Nor didn't get more of a storyline just like I was. Yeah. Um, yeah, disappointing. It was hard to get to the end of Son of a Witch and have that storyline with Lear completely just like cut off and then basically find out nothing in this book about what's going on with him. People hate that in in general like you know any series that do that where they skip to somebody else while it's kind of cliff It's pretty cliffhangery with the green child. Yeah. And then it just go You find nothing out about that in this book. None. Yeah. And like I was saying, it seems like the people were under the illusion that this was the last book. So imagine cuz some reviews are from back then, you know, this is it. Okay. Well, what the hell did I read all that for? So I get that. So, you know, those reviews might change once the series added out of odds included. Yeah, for sure. We'll be the judge of that next week cuz maybe not, maybe it doesn't, maybe it does. We'll find out. I'm curious. I'm genuinely curious to see what he chooses to wrap up and what he chooses to keep open-ended. Yeah, cuz I know he did say uh you know that he purposely leaves some loose ends, but that that end is too loose. You better snip that, tighten it up, do something with that. Don't That's too much. Like too much. Well, I feel like there's a big difference between not solving the world's problems and wrapping up character story lines. Like those are two very different things. So I would like to see the character story lines be resolved at least mostly even if you're not resolving like yeah all of these political problems that wouldn't be realistic I don't think cuz I think the point is to spark the whole point of the series is to spark individual thought you know on what is happening in our real world and the fact that we don't have all the answers. Mhm. Yeah. I feel like the best way to describe this book would be like if you had just finished um like Empire of Storms and then you get Tower of Dawn. Yeah. I think like I love Tower of Dawn. Obviously, we did the tandem read so that I think is a little bit different too, but I feel like a lot of people might feel that way where you get to this insane cliffhanger where you find out there's this green baby. Is it reincarnated alpha? Is it just like a child? Like what's going on here? Does it have powers? Like, we don't know anything. And then you get this whole other story that has nothing to do with that at all. And you have to wait what, like eight more years or something crazy to get uh Out of Oz. Yeah. And Yeah. Like Kingdom of Ash like imagine you don't know if Kingdom of Ash is even coming out. You're like, "Wait, what the hell?" Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's like that is probably how this felt to a lot of people. I mean, we have all the books out, so we don't really have to worry about that because we can just different reactions, different reviews, for sure. And that's why we say when we're doing these bonus series where we're reading backtoback, sometimes our reviews on previous books do change once we have all the information, you know. So, are you ready for a fun fact? I am. Great. The name Alphaba, what the what the heck, right? What name is that? Where does it come from? Where did it go? Cotton eye Joe. It's actually a nod to L. Frank Bomb. So I was watching a interview. Gregory McGuire does a lot of interviews. So if you want to hear more, he's out there talking. You can hear him. Funny guy. So he was, you know, trying to work with this name for a while and different try to piece different ways to put it together to like give a nod to that main character but still keep that but still make it different, whatever. So he goes through, it's funny because he talks about a lot of different options, but then one day it came from L as in LFrank, right? Um fa as in fa rank and then bomb as ba. So yeah, l faba. Yeah. Yeah, it's perfect. I mean, it works great now. It makes like total sense, which I kind of I liked the closure that I had for that because I Yeah, it was a hard I learned that name last year, you know? I was like it took me a while for it to stick. I think I was watching I was actually re-watching our wicked episode from last year cuz it's vibes, you know, and seeing what we said back then compared to now that I have so much more information. Um, but I kept saying uh alaba. So, apologies. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think all of us can relate to that. It's like if you're a reader, especially a fantasy, it's like we're pronouncing most things wrong. We have no idea how to say them. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. No judgment here. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, I think Do you have any more things left to say about A Lion Among Men before we move on to Out of Oz? That's it. That's it. I'm ready to move out of Oz. So, let's get this over with. No, not really. I'm just kidding. Uh I'm so ready for the the movie and everything and I do have a lot to say about all that. So, guys, yeah, stay tuned, stick around, like, follow, and subscribe everywhere you like to listen your favorite podcast, including YouTube. That way you don't miss out on the notifications when those videos go up. You can plan on every Friday until we're done. Then our normal Tuesday episodes. If you're done with Wicked and you just want to watch our regular ones, no worries. We still got your Tuesday episodes for you. But you guys, we'll see you next Tuesday and Friday. Bye.