(we actually want) OUT OF OZ!! | Wicked Book 4 Review and Summary | Deep Themes and Deep Thoughts

Today we FINISH our coverage of the original Wicked Years 4-book series by Gregory Maguire with the finale: Out of Oz, told from the perspective of Elphaba’s granddaughter Rain as she navigates the world as a stowaway during a politically tumultuous turnover of power. Was the grand finale everything we hoped it would be after the blood, sweat, and tears we put in analyzing this extremely political fantasy journey? Stick around to find out! 

Check out our kickoff  “Are Books Political" episode all about why books and reading are inherently political and why it’s not only important to acknowledge this, but to read our favorite books through this lens. We concluded during our subsequent deep dive of Wicked (book one), Son of a Witch (book 2), and A Lion Among Men (book 3) that Maguire intentionally uses the fantastical to expertly critique issues like authoritarianism, colonialism, and racism, just to name a few.

In this episode we dive into book four: Out of Oz, in which we see a conclusion for almost all the characters, and an ending that neither of us expected. Are we happy with the ending after all has been said and done? Who’s left ruling Oz? Is Rain following in the footsteps of her grandmother?

We give our spoiler free reviews, then get into our faves and least faves, and then take you to political / philosophical town for one more big discussion about the central themes, and how Gregory Maguire uses fiction as a tool to analyze the real world. 

Fantasy stories can be so much more than surface level storytelling, and often are. We’re here to discover why! Listen on for our reviews of book four, our deep dive reactions with five sentence summary, and fun facts about the Wicked Universe! 

And don’t worry, we didn’t forget! After these books end, there’s only one book left to cover: the prequel Elphie which came out fourteen years after Out of Oz. Tune back in next Friday if you’re wondering if this new addition to the Wicked universe is worth the read! 

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Check out these author interviews? ⬇️

We interviewed Callie Hart all about her NYT Bestseller Quicksilver! Watch it here! https://youtu.be/CED5s7qDBdQ?si=8xtIRO1IzX6Rsld4

Check the official Author Interview with Lindsay Straube of Split or Swallow! Now a Barnes & Noble & Amazon best seller titled: Kiss of the Basilisk!  https://youtu.be/fknhocSNIKM

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Ashley is wearing: A Wicked tee from Lamb Comedy | *  https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTHcMV23XxMXm-nPfQx/

Liz is wearing: A Wicked The Musical Tees from Broadway | https://wickedthemusicalstore.com/collections/apparel

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Chapters

• 0:00 Spoiler Free Intro
• 8:32 Out of Oz Book Review
• 15:46 5 Sentence Out Of Oz Book Summary
• 20:07 Fav and Least Favorite Things in Out of Oz
• 49:00 Philosophical Questions and Political Problems in Out of Oz
• 1:13:00 Unanswered Questions
• 1:20:00 Out of OzBook Quotes
• 1:37:35 Wicked Fun Fact!

Transcript

Should I read this last book? Like, is it worth it? I really wonder if it was hard for him to write the story after the story's already been written. Yeah. How much closer closure did we really get? My favorite part was all of part one. Honestly, I was so pumped.

Welcome to the Besties in the Books podcast. I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And today is officially our fourth deep dive book episode in our bonus series for Wicked. Okay, so we're going to be covering Out of Oz book four in the Wicked Years. Um, and kind of going over the theme of this whole series are books political. Yeah. And this is a really interesting series because, you know, as we've told you guys in the past, Wicked came out. What was it 10 years later? These subsequent three books came out. Then there was a significant amount of time before even the prequel came out. So, we're going to be talking about technically the wrap-up to the original like what is it called? I guess just a series if there's four. I'm like I always feel like that should be like a fun word, you know, cuz it's like trilogy and then like four, I don't know. Um, but the original So, we will be talking about the ending. I'm super interested to discuss Ashley. We haven't talked about it much. Yeah. So, as you guys know, we did kick off the series with our our books political episode. Go feel free to check that out. And then we've just been kind of like, you know, talking about our least favorites, most favorites, etc. But then we're also kind of asking ourselves what political problems and philosophical questions that Gregory Magguire has been talking about and kind of presenting through the use of fantasy. So, that's what we're going to be doing today. Yeah. You know, and hey, in case you read this book and you're just like, I need I need like a quick summation. Well, we'll bring that to you. Don't you fret. Liz got our five sentence summary for you and we'll wrap it up for you in a nice little bow. Maybe won't include everything, but it'll include what needs to be included in this book for sure. It really will. So, uh, look forward to that. But right now, it's spoilerfree. So, hang tight for a minute. We'll let you know when spoilers are coming in case you just want to hang out with us for the pre-chit, find out our reviews, if it's worth reading, all that stuff. We'll let you know what we did after books political. We dove into Wicked, the very famous life and times of the Wicked Witch of the West. The book that started it all except Wizard of Oz started it all. But then he Gregory Magcguire brought it back and started it again. Yeah. The phenomenon Liz's shirt, the musical, you know, started that. Now we have the movie movie coming out at this point that we're posting. I believe it's next week or right now. You guys excited? We're so excited.

It's been a minute since I threw that in there. So, we're excited. Then, we did a book, too, Son of a Witch. We talked all about that. A lion among men. We go over corruption, are people predisposed to wickedness, topics about war, imperialism, like guys, it gets heavy. Yeah. Capitalism, greed, colonialism, environmental degragation. Ooh, hot topics. It sounds like you're trying to sell someone on these fun topics. Hey, we've got some environmental degradation for you. Come on down. Come on in. The water's warm because of global warming.

And then we just start crying. We can't we can't cry if we laugh. Yeah. So, yeah. Again, just some of the topics that we're going to be discussing in addition to like Liz mentioned, our favorites, least favorites, reviews, recommendations, all that. find out some stuff more about this book if you're looking for more as we are leading up to the kickoff of Wicked 2 for good. Yeah. And you know, it's like we said, I think at some point during the series, too, you know, there's probably several of you who maybe don't know if you want to invest in reading a series this long, like just to present yourself with the backstory to Wicked. And so, hey, you could just listen to these episodes, find out what's going on behind the scenes, and then watch the movies and enjoy those, you know? It's okay. Yeah, there's that, too. Cuz we're we're your vibe podcast. Like, we'll tell you the vibes. We're not going to tell you every single line by line breakdown. We go over all those heavy themes, the summary, all of that. So, you'll get spoilers in there, but hopefully it helps you decide for yourself. I want to read these. How many you're okay? We'll talk about this, but every version of this book is different amount of pages, but my most recent this is a recent copy, you know, 638 page book. So, my paperback back here is the original from like I don't know back in the day when I bought these and it's like 500 some odd pages, but then the Kindle version is 1,040 pages. I Yeah, I don't even know. The audio book is 29 hours and then which guys is actually kind of hilarious because in this book out of Oz, this is the first time that Gregory Maguire explains how time works in Oz and it doesn't make any sense intentionally. He makes it that way way to where it doesn't make any sense. And so Ashley and I have been joking this whole time about how that's like a perfect representation. Like is it going to take us 2 hours to finish it or two weeks? We don't know because we don't know what time means anymore. And and for both of us, we kept skipping around to different, you know, ways to consume the book. And it was it was a head game for sure. Oh man. Don't recommend if you unless you want to drive yourself a little mad. Okay. Stick with one and keep it. It was fitting. So it was funny. So today we're just going to be giving you guys all of our thoughts on book four and the epic conclusion to the original Wicked series. is um I'm like when did this one come out? What did I put here? Well, I I put that we are going to be covering Elfie next week. So that is the prequel. So technically that's book.5. So that came out only 8 months ago which was 14 years. So you guys can do the math. I'm not going to do that right now. 14 years after Out of Oz came out. So you can see that there's a lot of time a lot of time and space in between space. Yeah. um when these books came out, but we will be covering that one as well. Um if you're wondering, you know, because that one seems a little bit less daunting. It's a lot shorter um a lot obviously newer. So, we'll be kind of discussing what we thought about that and if it is worth reading as well. Okay. Oh, and just like a little um extra tidbit that we did think was cool, the audible version is narrated by Cynthia Arivo. So, enjoy that in your ears. I have been enjoying it in my ears. Yeah. And we'll let you know too. I'll think about this as I read it. You should you should do this, too. Um if like if if you're going to have to read the whole series to go back to Elfie or maybe if you just want to read Wicked and you just really love Alphaba, do you want to just go back to Elfie? You know what I mean? Like all four to read Elfie. Yeah. Like kind of like what we did with Anna Green Gables, you know? Are necessary. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, the week after we'll be talking about the new movie and ranking books and movies. And I thought it was going to be really hard, but guess what? It's not going to be hard. It's not going to be hard anymore. I got it. I got it locked in. Yeah, same. Um, what was I going to ask you? Oh, did you do not have Peacock or Hulu and so I haven't been able to watch the Wicked special? I can't remember what it's called now, but it was the one where they like live perform a bunch of stuff that you like you haven't seen any clips of that like floating around online. It looks so so good. I was going to ask if you'd watch it. It's like only like I think an hour and 20 minutes long or something. That's why I'm like I don't want to sign up for a whole new subscription service just to watch this one thing, but it's bothering me because it looks so good from the clips that I've seen. Like they put Cynthia Revo in like a harness and have her perform defying gravity while she's like up there flying. It looks so cool. It looks Oh, well, if I make an account, I'll slip you some info. Yeah. If you know what I mean, cuz I also don't have an account, but sometimes we'll do it like during the holidays. We'll sign up for a couple months if there's, you know, enough stuff that we want to watch that we actually maybe have time, you know? Yeah. So, I'll let you know. Yeah. Let us know. Did you watch it? Was it great? Let us know. So, for sure. Should we just get into our spoiler-free quickie reviews of book four in the Wicked Ears? out of Oz. Yeah, let's do that. But before we do, make sure to like, follow, and subscribe anywhere you like to listen your favorite podcast, including YouTube. We're besties in the books podcast everywhere. You can also find us on Instagram and Tik Tok at besties in the books podcast where we are also posting the five sentence summaries. So, in case you want like, you know, to get right into that to see it, you refresh your memory. If you take breaks between the books, they're there for you. Just search it and and we're there. We're hanging out. So, thank you so much for joining us you guys in this series. I think also just to tease you some more in the last ranking episode that we do during our bonus series, we will announce what we're doing for the next installment of our bonus series. So, we'll let you guys know that soon. Excited. I'm so excited. 2026. I'm so excited about one in particular. Actually, I'm excited about it all. So, whatever. But there's one in particular that I think you guys are going to be extra into. So, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now, let's do it. Liz, hit me with your best shot. What did you think of this book? So, all right. This was tough for me because, okay, based on like entertainment, I would have rated this book a three star. Um, but because Gregory Maguire, in my opinion, is quite the wordsmith, we are bumping it to a four star. I don't feel like he deserves, in my opinion, a three star because his writing is so good. I just don't even know if this book was necessary. Like I really struggle with or maybe instead of a thousand Kindle pages, it could have been like 500 Kindle pages. Yeah. You know, cuz like necess I think necessary, you know, in some clo closure maybe. Um, but it was very long for not much. Well, it's almost like I feel like like I'm just reworking this whole thing. I kind of feel like now that we've read all four of them, it's almost like Wicked and Son of a Witch to me could have been one book and then A Lion Among Men and and Out of Oz could have been one book and shorter and then a duogy and that would have been like perfect in my opinion. Yeah. Trim down a little bit of everything after Wicked. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Wicked was perfect. Wicked was perfect, but then Yeah. trim down everything else substantially and smush it together. Smush it together. Yeah. Cuz like I feel like you're right, like we couldn't have had it be such a cliffhanger after the last book. Like we did need some closure, but then at the same time, we'll get into it. How much closure closure did we really get? And how much but it's also intentional. So yeah. So anyways, um was it very entertaining? In my opinion, not really. But I do think it's important and I did think it was written very well and so for those reasons I settled on a four-st star. Um, this book, if I'm remembering correctly, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I think this was also a zero spice, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just some vulgar language. Yeah. But not actually probably the most like um you know for the parents out there wondering the most curse words and the most vulgar parts put in um you know derogatory in a derogatory way you know those kind of things like those kind of mentions you know so hey whatever though nothing like on scene anything like that. Yeah. No spice on page at all. No no okay what about you? Well, I want to give it a hard three cuz um I really struggled with this one quite frankly. It was off to such a good start. It really was. It really was. And then what the hell? I'll give him a pity fourst star cuz you're right. Like, you know, it just fine. It's hard to give something that's written so well. Do you know what I mean? A low. It's hard for me to do that because I'm like, gosh, this is like expert writing if I've ever seen it. It's just it it is it's just unnecessarily long and goes on unnecessary tangents in my opinion. Yeah. But I am just a small town girl living in a small town world. So, no, I mean it is that's accurate. I agree with you. It's meandering needlessly, I feel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Needlessly wordy. So, I I I mean, it would have been a five star if we could have at least maybe 200 pages cut, you know? Hey, I'll be modest about how much to cut out. Um or keep the momentum from part one. I don't know. It just And it kind of did that thing where cuz it's broken up into different parts cuz you're kind of following different story lines, which is totally fine. And I'm used to that style from him now. But I especially in this book, you have to know getting into it. You're going to like get buildup and then they're going to change story. Build up and then change story. So it gives me whiplash. And then when because it's so long doing that, then I'm just mad at it and I just don't care anymore. I just don't care anymore. So sorry. Hey, that's that's my rambly review. very wordy just like this book with not a lot to say but I'm saying it anyways. So yeah, it was very symbolic my review. I just if you couldn't stay on my review, well that's my that is what reading this book is like. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So there's that. Take from that what you will. Um you know and here's another thing. If you've made it this far, let's say in your wicked reading journey, and you're like, should I read out of a like, should I read this last book? Like, is it worth it? I don't know. Maybe just like listen to this episode and find out if you think that that's worth it because it is, in my opinion, long and winding and I I don't know. I mean, listening to a podcast episode might be fine. Do Listen, do I regret reading it? Yes. Yes. I don't I don't regret I don't regret reading it. Um Oh, no. It's It's just It could have been an email. It could have been an email. Yes, that's exactly right. It could have been If it could have been an email, it could be a last book, too. So, I did have high hopes. Anytime it's a final book, my expectations are going to be real high. So, yeah, it wrapped up a few things. So, but not enough, I feel, but we'll talk about that. Okay. So, should we get into spoiler section starting with the five sentence summary?

There you go, guys. If you have any will to live, you might want to get going. Spoilers coming in hot. We're officially spoiling everything for the series as far as it goes. Everything up until the prequel. Yeah. Everything up until now. We're going to spoil everything. Tell you who lives, who dies, and who doesn't care. Who doesn't matter. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. Great. You ready? I'm ready. All right. No. Uh I Sorry, I still can't find my daughter's kazoo or harmonica. So, I'll get the drum line going with this gong. Okay. Whatever we got to do, it's all good. Whatever we got to do. So, sorry if you guys really enjoyed that. It's been lost. It's okay. We'll have a moment of silence. It's an Oz. We lost a lot of good men out there. Yeah, we did. Okay. Out of Oz by Gregory Maguire. Starting in with a five sentence summary. Let's go. Okay. Or less. I did this in five sentences. I feel like I feel like still there was enough to say even though nothing but everything happened. Okay, here we go. Okay. Mhm. Dorothy Gail has returned to Kansas where no one believes that there is a place called Oz or that Dorothy was actually there. So, in an attempt to help Dorothy recover and move on with her life, her aunt and uncle take her on a trip to visit San Francisco. However, the great earthquake of 1906 occurs, sending she and Toto back to Oz.

One off to an interesting start. Yes, definitely. I'd say yeah. I like that it brought in like a real world thing, too. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that really happened. That's cool. Okay. Meanwhile, Lady Glenda is living in her estate, Mockbagger Hall, which just so happens to be on the edge of Munchkin Land territory during the civil war between the quoteunquote free state of Munchkin Land, led by Mambi and her general Gingeria, and Oz, led by Shell, who has professed himself as not only an emperor, but a god. So, she is put under house arrest as a potential traitor by General Cherry Stone, who takes a liking to one of her odd servant girls, Rain, who he teaches to read. H two everything's going fine, right? Yeah. The burg I can't even say this word. Band the burgand traveling with the clock of the time dragon including Mr. Boss and the future sister Apothecare his new wife Burr and his wife Nor stop at Mockbar Hall to drop the grimmory off with Glenda for safekeeping. And in doing so, it's discovered that Rain can read the Grimmery, helping freeze Cherrystone ships, killing many of the dragons pulling them, which allows Rain to join their group as they travel first to Quadling Country to stay under the radar, where the clock is destroyed after Rain made it fly. And then to the Chancel of the Lady, where Rain is reunited with her parents, Le and Candle, and it is officially revealed that she is Alphaba's granddaughter under a cloaking spell.

Three. They hear that Dorothy is back in Oz and being put on trial for killing Nessaros and Alphaba. So they split up. Burr, Daffy, and Mr. Boss go and rescue her. And Lear, Candle, and No go and make a quiet life in the woods together until it becomes too dangerous for them. So Nor takes Candle to a boarding school in Shiz to be train or to be raised with other girls which she soon thereafter escapes with a close friend named Tip that she meets there and travels to Kiamo Co where Lear and Candle now live and where Nor was killed in the ambush in which Lear and the Grimy are kidnapped by Mombi.

Four W. Rain decides to take matters into her own hands and heads to the Emerald City to find her dad when it is mercilessly firebombed to rubble by the Munchkin Lander forces and their dragons. A parlay is come to for negotiations where Mambi recites a spell to lift the cloaking and enchantment she put on Lear, turning him into an elephant, which also inadvertently turns Rain back to her green self, turns Tip back into the lost queen of Oz, Osma, and possibly, though it is unclear, brings back Alphaba. Burr is made temporary leader until Osma comes of age. Dorothy goes back to Kansas. Shell leaves to go live in obscurity. Mr. Boss and Daffy start a pastry business. Glitter and Mambi are imprisoned. Candle goes off on her own, unable to forgive himself or Lear for their choices raising Rain. And Rain flies out on a never-ending quest over the ocean to dump the Grimray out as far as she can go.

The five.

Ah. So, there we are. There we go. There we are. There it is. There's the books. There you go. Why don't we start with uh your favorite part? We'll just start there. What was your favorite part of this book? When I finished it,

I'm just kidding. Kind of. Not really. But for for reals though, my favorite part was all of part one. Honestly, I was so pumped. I was like, "Oh, Dorothy in San Francisco. Cool." Okay, she's going back to Oz. What's going to happen? Oh, Glenda. Oo, kind of like a really interesting kind of double agent. She's very under the radar. Seems to be working with the Munchkin Landers. Very, you know, under under whatever undercover ops. Undercover like to the max. Like almost she doesn't even know she's doing it. Um I don't I don't think she knows she's doing it. I think she's just kind of like living her life. And it just so happens to be that I think that's the point. I think she knows she's doing some stuff cuz she finds out they're building the boats and she's like can't have that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think she's like intentionally sabotaging. Um I mean she intentionally sabotaged the boats. But I think she only did that because Rain like I didn't think she intentionally was doing it. I think that she wanted to try to do something and then Rain was the one that sabotaged the Yeah. But yeah, you don't think I felt like there was little moments where Glenda was like something about like the um you know like finding out well what you're going to take away their water they're not going to be able to grow their crops and he Cherry Stone's like whatever you know and so she's like hm so okay well hey I think she know I think she knows and plays it so well that she forgets that what she's doing okay does that make sense okay so I loved that and I loved Rain and the grim and um blowing up the lake. So, all great starts part one. So, that set my expectations real high. Yeah. And then I never came back from that. Yeah. Uh so, my favorite part was the same. I liked the introduction of Dorothy in San Francisco, the earthquake sending her to Oz. I like that. That kind of um you know like suspends disbelief in like a really interesting way. I was like that's really cool. Like how is she going to go back and forth? But then she like never really does and so that kind of disappointed me. But yeah, I did like that intro and then I just put here the otter familiar Tay literally. Okay. Slots and otter are my two favorite animals. And as soon as I realized she was going to have an otter as her like friend companion, I was like, dude. And that little creature was hands down like the best part of this book to me. So cute. I loved it. I thought of you every time. A Liz is happy about that. I was I was very happy about it. And who is it? It's adorable. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. So, what about your least favorite part? Oh, yeah. again, jokingly, the way the book dragged for absolutely no reason was my least favorite part about it. Um, but really specifically, honestly, the way that Gregory wrote No's death kind of felt personal, like a personal attack on people who liked No. Nor's dead. She's dead dead. She's good as dead. She's never coming back alive. You know what I mean? Like almost like he was disgruntled. So many people wanted Nor's story and like she don't even ask me anymore at any book sightings. She's never coming back. She fell off a cliff and she's dead. I was just like geez Louise. Um yeah, but also what made me so mad um about Nor being dead wasn't even that she was dead. Like I wasn't particularly attached to her character or almost all of them which is kind of the problem. I didn't really have an emotional attachment to almost anybody. So, these things didn't really affect me that way. Um, but I was annoyed that like, yeah, of course she's dead cuz they all went back to the most obvious place that they could go. Yeah. So, that makes me mad that everybody's so stupid, you know? It was like the epitome of what happens when idiot boys make rash decisions, too. Let's go back to Kamako. He said that in the last book. Like, I was like, "Oh, I know where that's going." Yeah. Yep. They're dead. Oh, yeah. So, I think it was like a full circle moment because that's where all of her family was captured and killed. You know, I I really struggled with Nor's death. Not necessarily because I was attached to her character because to be honest, she was a pretty hollow character in my opinion. Um, but like she just had such a tragic existence and it kind of seems like her whole life was just tragic. And then I mean they even said they didn't know if she in the squabble fell off the cliff like got pushed or if she killed herself intentionally like they don't even know because that's so they said she was kind of going mad being at her place of trauma childhood trauma. So that kind of bothered me not necessarily like in a was my least favorite part kind of way but just in like a sad like I was just kind of like wow what a tragedy like after all that she just dies. You know, it doesn't. And you know, her character in particular bothers me because I feel like it's disjointed, you know, cuz we get her working for the resistance and undercover in the other books, you know, or well, just the line of bug men, right? Yeah. Um and then she's just like I don't know, not unless she's just in, you know, everything comes and hits her finally, but still. Yeah, it's a bummer. I feel like like I said, she kind of seemed like like and maybe that was the point, right? Is she's just like the shell of a person. She's just kind of like dead inside is kind of how it feels, you know? Yeah. Um so my least favorite part I put here is that everything was antilimactic all the time. Yeah. Um also the part that really made me mad that I had voice memoed you about but then I didn't want to give anything away so we didn't talk about it. I didn't like how when we find out that Rain is actually Alphaba's granddaughter and Len Candle's daughter, it's like, no, it it's like the only thing I could think about was like when we were reading Ann of Green Gables and Merilla like didn't have her moment. I was like, I feel like that's how this feels. There was no fanfare. There was no great reveal. There was nothing. It was just kind of like and that's what it was. You didn't know reading? Well, up until that point, I knew, but like I figured like when she found out who she was, there would be Do you know what I mean? Like something and it was just And I get that like her character is very like Rain's character is very like she's like Alphaba, right? Like she just experiences the world differently and processes information differently. So, I could see that she wouldn't completely like freak out, but then at the same time, I just felt like it was like burp burp, okay? Like, I'm Alphaba's granddaughter. I have this insane legacy. I'm also like technically in line to rule like Oz and Munchkin Land essentially, and I'm just going to kind of like derpy derp just move on along. I don't know. I didn't like that. Yeah. It seemed very like humrum to me like it could have been Yeah. I don't know, like they could have experienced it differently. I think it would have been more profound had we the reader not been able to like guess it so quickly, you know, and then given a more a bigger moment, but because it was like, okay, that's obviously Rain. Uh, or Rain is obviously Rain right away. You know, the only moment it was like finding out who Rain is like while she's under Glenda. It's like, oh, okay, cool, cool, cool. But then, I mean, Lear and Candle already knew she was under Glenda's care. So, that wouldn't be surprising to them. But then I think the way Rain's personality is, yeah. is all like aloof like alphaba and very much like how a teenager like that personality would respond cuz she's like they're not my parents. No, you know, and we're not getting her monologue during that time which is a disservice. But um yeah, I I get it. But I don't know if it was meant to be big and profound since we the reader are supposed to guess that already. Yeah. I guess more conflict then it would be annoyingly obvious. You're like, "Well, okay, why are we making a big deal? Duh." You know what I mean? Yeah. I guess more like a a conflict regarding like her identity. Yeah, that wasn't really like discuss. I guess cuz it was such a theme in the other books. Maybe he didn't want to be repetitive. That's what I was thinking with like when I was trying to think of all these political and philosophical questions, you know, that we talk about in every episode. If that's what it felt like he's like, "Well, I can't do that cuz I've already done that so many times." Totally. Totally. I agree. So, I almost feel like that's why he didn't give Rain that moment cuz literally every one of his characters have. Yeah. But that's that's what everybody deals with in life, though. So, to me, it wouldn't be repetitive cuz it's like Yeah. It just pulled me out because I was like, you just had this like insane thing dropped on you and you just kind of go on going. Yeah. Like, no. Like, it's a huge deal. I don't know. I feel like I feel like Rain freaked out more about finding out that Tip was actually Osma than she freaked out about finding out that she was actually Alphaba's granddaughter, which doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Maybe cuz maybe, you know, but we don't get her in a monologue. Maybe it's already something that she probably figured it out along the way. Like, oh, I'm probably I'm probably, you know, I'm somebody's daughter. I don't know where I I don't know where I am or where I showed up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's it. Maybe it was almost like a comfort because now she kind of had an idea of where she came from, you know what I mean? As opposed to just like this. I mean, also she's mad at her parents, you know? Yeah. And doesn't understand everything completely as a teenager would, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, that's what I felt. That feeling was like how I felt all throughout the rest of the book. Yeah. Just like, okay, why are we here? Why are we doing this if it isn't like to get us somewhere? The whole like Dorothy thing was very antilimactic. Like that was so cool. Okay, she comes back to Oz. Oh wow, they're putting her on trial. Oh, they she escapes. I would have rather her died. I would have rather them than kill her. Honestly, cuz then they just they just rescue her and then move on and she just travels with them and then she just has like a little life there. I don't know. I didn't and then goes back. So it's like, okay, the grim is bringing her back then. That's the only guess I can make. But why? But why? Like what was the point of her honestly? Because you know, we'll talk about the like the only political thing that I wrote down that is different than any of the other books. Um we'll talk about that because that was the only purpose of her after all this. Yeah. It was just to kind of show like how political leanings can be so fickle. Yeah. Yeah. and the and the use of scapegoats. Yeah. So, okay, off of that, why don't we just talk about our favorite least favorite characters before we get into all that stuff because I feel like I want to talk about that, too. So, who was your favorite character? My favorite character was actually Rain because of her resilience to everyone's [ __ ] is very admirable. Like, she really was like, I aspire to be that nonchalant about the world around me because it sucks. She's just like, "Oh, no. Mhm. Yeah." Like, she's used to all the [ __ ] and just letting being a duck, letting it roll off her back. It's can be annoying as a reader because you want some kind of reaction, but Yeah. Yeah. Cool. It's like that side of Alphaba. She really is. Yeah. I really struggled with Rain's character for that same reason. Oh. Oh, for the same reason. Interesting. Yeah. I was just kind of like, okay, I get it, but then at the same time, I'm like, you're kind of a dull dud to read about. Like, yeah, but yeah, you don't need a you don't need a book about Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like, Alphaba was much more like impassioned. So, yeah, she was aloof to a lot of things, but she was also impassioned about a lot of things. I kind of feel like Rain was like just aloof to everything almost. Yeah. Like, and so I'm like, okay, do we even need to read about you? You kind of just don't care about anything. Yeah. Okay, great. That could be one one sentence at the end. You know, that's the thing. Um, so I put my favorite character was the otter. Yeah, because at least somebody finally got the award. Taye the otter is awesome and I loved them the whole time and I want them to be my friends. So, for that reason and had more personality than Rain, let's be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Mhm. So that's what I put. What about your least favorite character? Ooh, Mr. Boss. Yeah, you really hated him. Super gross me out. He He is the one most of the time saying gross vulgar stuff and not a fun way. And it wasn't even like a funny cute way. It's like just think of like an old gross man. Yeah. Like saying vulgar things about women, people. Just you know. I obviously cussing is not a problem to me at all. Bad words. I don't care. [ __ ] [ __ ] Damn. Okay. But when he says it, it's like ear muffs. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the voice actor, cuz I did Kindle and um switch back and forth with audio. The voice actor was great. He did a great job. Almost too good because I feel like But maybe Yeah. Yeah. That's when I switched like around uh Dorothy's trial. And so he's talking a lot more, you know, about the madness. You're right. It might have been the voice actor was too good. He just made him sound really skezy, which is exactly how he's supposed to sound. But then you're like, you Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Hated him. Hated him real hard. What about you? Um I I didn't like him either, but I actually put um that Glenda was my least favorite character in this book. Oh, I liked her this time. How funny. Yeah, I think I really struggled with Glenda's character this entire series because of the fact that like I guess I viewed her and like this might be a wrong like I don't know, maybe there's like no wrong opinion or perception, but like the way that I kind of like see her character as someone who in her heart wants the best for everyone, right? Like she's not out to get anyone. like she wants the world to truly like get along and there to be peace. She's a she's kind deep down inside. But I think that she's the perfect example of just like letting the wind blow you where it blows you and she has a significant amount of influence and power for a lot of the series and chooses to almost do nothing. Um, and I honestly think that the action that she takes in this book is almost just because she's in the right place at the right time and literally has little to do with her actual like intentions. That makes sense. Yeah. Like I feel like if she had the opportunity to be somewhere else during this whole situation and just kind of like live in her little castle and be happy and aloof, she would have done that. Um, yeah. And so I kind of was a little bit upset with her. Like I was expecting her to really be doing more or to find out that this whole time she was doing more behind the scenes. That's what I thought we were going to find out with that whole big beginning and just know. Same. So I think that was the thing is that, you know, I'm like not to make it too political as things are going right now, but I kind of feel like Glenda's kind of like the Democrats right now. Yeah. That's that totally is Glenda in a nutshell. And that's how I felt about her. And as I am upset with what's going on right now in the real world, I'm upset at Glenda, too. Okay. I feel like she should be doing more instead of just like passively accepting the crumbs and, you know, doing her best not to not let everything get completely go up in a dumpster fire, I guess. You know what I mean? Bare men's. I did not appreciate. Bare men's. Yeah. Bare men's. Yeah. So, as much as I wanted to love her, but hey, listen. I'm going to go and I'm going to see Wicked for Good and Ariana Grande will be amazing and it will wipe all of this from my memory. Yeah, that are going to be two separate things, guys. They really are. They really are. Um, so overall, I think we've already kind of talked about this a little bit, but like did this book just make you feel kind of underwhelmed and frustrated or are there other feelings that you had that you want to share? Bored out of my mind. Yeah. Yeah. What literally what literary devices were used to elicit that emotion? Um, dragging outside conversations at nauseium for starters. How about that? What about you? Well, that's the thing is like I love journey stories. I know you're not a big journey story lady, but I am. I love journey stories. And this one No, no. Because it's exactly what you said before. It's like this um like a constant pattern of like I would get I would get into it and I'd be in it and I'd be like, "Okay, this is what's going on. Cool, cool, cool." and then it would switch gears to a different group of people or to a different part of the journey or different timeline and it would suck me out and then I would have to like recalibrate and like I like multiple timelines as I've talked to you guys about in the past but the way that this was done I don't know if it was because it was so long I don't know but it just the journey story did not work for me this time around I know exactly what it is for me because look it here's a great for anybody who reads, you know, all fantasy books and stuff like we do. And Throne of Glass is the best example I can think of off the top of my head. Assassin's Blade, those like short stories. Oh, yeah. Almost that they're written. I would keep getting into it. It would finish and then I have to get whiplash like quickly over and over and over again. So, that's kind of how for me starting with Assassin's Blade for Throne of Glass, I shouldn't have started with it cuz I wasn't emotionally invested in the characters. See, I love that reading order. Yeah. And I still didn't like it. own. But why it didn't work this time, right, is I don't give a crap about any of these people. Yeah, that's the So, it's hard for me to care about, oh, they're going in circles again. Oh, they're going back to Kyamako like a dummies. Like, oh, they're going back over. Oh, they're out of college again. Whoopitydoo. you know, so it's it's just it was so hard for me to care about all these, oh, they're in the town meeting this random, you know, animal and, you know, I just I don't care. Yeah. Well, I I feel like in a good journey story, especially one with multiple timelines and POV, I expect more full circle moments. That's what I like about that. That's why like see I'm the type of person where I read Assassin's Blade first and then when we go full circle and things happen like oh Irene's back for example, right? I freak out about stuff like that. I'm like Yeah, totally. I feel like this did not have that. Yeah. Well, even uh Kingdom of Ash is a good example cuz you have literally so many different point of views and the timeline. They're like kind of nearby, right? Of course. Or even if you're doing the tandem read with Throne of Glass and Empire of Storms, it's like so much going on. Yeah. And this damn is there so much going on. No, there's like this singular like goal and everybody's going. It's just it's just this could have been trimmed down. Yeah, it could have been an email. There's a civil war and we find out that the queen has been glamored in hiding and then now she's not anymore. Okay. The end. There was no fanfare to me for that. Yeah. I mean, there's a little bit more to me for that because obviously Momi freaks out and you know, blah blah blah. Like, uh, Shell abdicates the throne to goes to go live in a cave, which his whole storyline. Okay, let's talk about that really quick because I didn't mention this in my least favorite parts. This whole entire series, I've been waiting to find out not just that Glenda was working with the resistance, but that Shell was doing something meaningful. And it just turns out he's just a weirdo. Like like yeah, literally no no no ulterior motives at all. He's just a weirdo who wants to rule. Who is who sits on a bucket who literally he's like he's like if Russell Brand was the king. Yes. So sorry Matthew McConnA for thinking that was you in the first introduction to Shell. No, it's Russell Brand. Full unhinged. Terrible person. Yes. Literally. Post Katy Perry. Yeah. He's just sitting there on his bucket talking. Oh my gosh. Like out there like philosophy and then they're like, "Hey, uh, so you're kind of getting like, you know, usurped now or I don't know what you call it when it's like he's technically the usurper, but then the original person comes back, right?" And he's like, "Yeah, well, you know what? There's like these monk guys who like live in caves out in the middle of nowhere. I guess I'll just do that." And then he just like wanders off into obscurity. It's like, what is going on? It was that easy. Yeah. This whole time. This whole time. Yeah. This whole time. This whole time. Yeah. So, that pissed me off because I was like, this entire time I thought that we were going to find I thought that was the, you know, symbolic bomb that was going to get dropped, right? Is we were going to find out that he was really tearing it up from the inside and taking it down. And it's like, nope. He was just a weirdo. a power- hungry, I guess. Not even that power- hungry weirdo. Just a guy. Cuckoo. That's it. So, didn't love that. So, was this book what you expected? No. Nope. Nope. In a bad way. What about you? I mean, I don't know that I really had any expectations necessarily. I just wanted to know what was going to happen. I was like curious about what was gonna happen for a book this length compared to this. Okay. Oh, I was like, "Oh, he has some [ __ ] to say still." He didn't he didn't have more. No, more was said, I think, when it comes to political discussions, philosophical, more was said in the shorter books than any of this noise. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, that it it kind of enrages me. So, sorry. Yeah. I mean, my expectations were that things would get a little bit more wrapped up in a satisfying way and they did not. So, in that way, it didn't meet my expectations. But, as far as storyline goes, I didn't really have any expectations for that. Like, I didn't know how we would get from point A to point B. You know, I don't think I've ever read a book series that depressed me so much as this one really honestly did in fantasy. For real. For real. Because yeah, I know I know from all the interviews I've watched of old Greg here, he intentionally leaves loose ends cuz he says that's life. I don't want to do it. I don't want to read about like I told you guys in the last episode, this would be the [ __ ] magical system that we would inherit if we got transported into another world. This would be the fantasy land we didn't want to get to go to Aaris. Heck, even Basgiath, we would have to go to Oz. This crappy mirror of our society that is a little bit of magic for a couple people. Animals talk, but they kind of suck, too. And everybody sucks and everybody's really stupid. Um, so it's just depressing. Yeah. You know, there's no satisfying solutions really to the problem. Like, okay, Osma is a little girl again, so she's not even ready to now the lion's in charge. Like, okay, he's fine. I like the lion enough, but like, what are they really going to do better? Who knows? Who cares? I don't This should be the bottom line right here, and this should answer all of your questions. Dorothy is a human teenage girl. When she comes back, she's 16. She comes back to Oz. She doesn't want to stay. Yeah. Mhm. Me neither. I get it, girl. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. That's your first That's your first clue. If you're a 16-year-old girl who gets transported to a fantasy land, you should want to stay there. If you don't, then there is a problem with the land. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. It's somehow made our political system look not as bad as this one, I guess. Geez. That's what I mean is like it that made me so depressed because I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, that's how it is and it sucks. I don't want to read about it. Yeah. I feel so maybe that's not on me. Yeah. No, I feel like, you know, while it's important for like these themes to be reflected in fiction because I feel like it allows people to like digest it differently and formulate opinions that maybe otherwise they wouldn't examine. I feel like this series is so heavy. I think that the fact that we just read four books back to back to back was a lot of mental overload. Yeah, I felt like for how much we got in the first three books, this one fell flat. Hands down. For sure. For sure. It was like you got the momentum, you got the And then, like I said, we're going to talk about political and philosophical questions here in a second. I didn't really feel like there was much else. Yeah. like and it and it felt like maybe he didn't want to be repetitive, but I'm like no, you already gotten me amped up. Let's go. And no, it's like no, just everybody sucks. Yeah. So, like, cool. Okay, great. That could have been an email. That could have been an email. Just send out anybody who read my books. Moral of the story is everybody sucks. Everybody's just out for themselves. Sometimes convenient changes happen. And what's with the grimarie? I don't know. It didn't really change much either. Everything was for nothing. everything was sorry a little ragy but that's the thing is I think that's kind of the point right is that it's like such a small blip in time like over the grand scheme of like humanity that it's like you know Rain thinks that she's doing humanity or whatever you want to call it like a service vanity yeah by by taking the grimary out to the middle of the ocean where no one ever goes dropping it in there so that presumably this won't create more problems in the future, right? Well, what do we know? We know that that, as symbolic as it might be, is not going to prevent people or animals or the combination of making the same mistakes again in the future. Cuz it's like these four books all happen within the course of I think three generations. Yeah, cuz we've got the granddaughter. So, it's three generations worth of time. Um, if you're equating it to like Earth years, human time. Um, and which is another thing, which is another thing. The time is crazy over there, so we don't know. But I feel like that's kind of what the point is is like that's as much as Rain might feel like she's wrapping something up by doing that, at the end of the day, like what's that really doing? They'll find something. There's always something for them to manipulate and utilize and pin people against each other and all that. So for this instance, it was trying to find the grimmory to use against the people and then the osmosas and who's working with who and colluding and most of the time people are just living their lives, but they're going to use it as reasoning anyways. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Uh so there you go. So all right, let's just start with our philosophical questions. Hey great. All right. Um I'll start. Is it possible that nothing is good or evil because times and perception continuously change? That's deep. Great. I feel like one of the quotes that I pulled was she wasn't afraid of doing good or of resisting evil. She was merely afraid she might not be able to tell the difference. And that was talking about rain. And I was like, you know, that would be really a fascinating thing to kind of, you know, conceptualize if you were someone like, let's just use like Yakle for example, cuz she was alive for such a long time. Like, or was she? Or was she? Yeah. Was the time now I'm like questioning everybody's age. Yeah. Everyone's like seven. Yeah. No, like assuming that she's as old as you know we were led to believe that she is, then it's like you watch what's good turn evil and you watch what's evil turn good and you watch the public perception of events change so much that it's like no wonder that blurs the lines of you know what is inherently good or evil. So, how do you make those decisions when everything is so yeah like fickle or influenced by things like propaganda for example or who gets to write history or language um intentionally and not intentionally, right? Like all the information evolves and changes over time. So, that was one of my favorite questions. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. You want to bounce back and forth? Uh, sure. I only got one cuz I just couldn't anymore. I just couldn't I couldn't I gave up. I didn't I didn't feel like this book was that deep. Okay. So, uh other than anything we've already discussed in previous books. So, but again the question did come up again of who am I? And I have a quote. What a mystery we are to ourselves even as we go on learning more sorting it out a little. The further we go on the more meaning there is but the less articulatable you live your life. And the older you get, the more specific specific specificity. Specificity. Thank you. Specific. Nope. Specificity. Say that again. Did I get it? Okay. Don't say tell me to do it again. Uh, you harvest the more precious becomes every ounce and spasm. Mhm. I think I wrote that one down, too. Mhm. Yep. Oh, I do have one more, but hey. So there you go. But the question of who am I? And basically it's like well you're kind of finding it out as you go. You're ever evolving, ever changing little by little. Just to bounce off that one of mine was, and I know we talked about this in previous episodes, but I feel like they really hammered home the question of do choice and free will really exist. Yeah. Um in this book. And so I think it was Burr that says this. I don't think we as individuals have much choice in our affairs after all. Despite any fond hope for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I haven't been able to avoid Oz or to get out of Oz. I'm just a pawn. I didn't ask to be born an orphan. Okay, so who are we talking about? Burr. I can't remember. Whatever. I didn't ask to be born an orphan or to be taken on. Oh, this is actually Dorothy. Okay, sorry. I'm like realizing this all now. Or to be taken on by Uncle Henry and Annie M. I didn't ask to annoy everyone with my soapy character. It wasn't my idea that an earthquake should punish San Francisco the week I arrived. We really can't do much about our given circumstances, can we? We may have free will, but it isn't in the end very free. I might as easily have been born in China. Mhm. And I was like, that was actually that's funny that I couldn't remember that Dorothy was the one that said that because I feel like she was kind of like a dingbat like most of the time. So yeah, look at her having profound. So like by the end of this book, she'd had enough. She was sick of that, too. She was like, "The rosecolored glasses had been removed," which I think is a lot is very representative of how we go into adulthood, you know, even though she's having to do it as a younger age. But it's like, "Ooh, like, oo, I have all this freedom. Oh, I can go do this. Oh, I can, oh, I'm in this wonderful magical land. How cool, cool." And then you're like, "Oh, this sucks. Being an adult sucks. I have to get excited about a vacuum. Cool." You know, and she's just like, "You guys all suck." She's figuring out, "You guys are all I thought I was a dummy. You guys are dummies." So, I mean, she makes a big stance against Shell. So, I think she's just like, "I've had enough of you people." Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I did think that that was an important part that was put in there where it was literally like time and place, where you're born, all things that none of us have any control over. We don't have control. And it's so crazy to me that there are the vast majority of people in this world that don't have that concept. That that never dawned on them. That you have no control where you are born, who you are born to, what body you're born into. So how is it that you pin wars against each other? How would you how can you fight with your neighbor? That could easily be you. It's all random. Like there's no there's no philosophical way to talk your way out of that. You are born at random into whatever circumstance you're in. Well, yeah. And then it's also like you know the I think what she's saying too is that it's like whatever station you're born into you know the whole concept that the whole like you know I don't know manifest destiny concept or um you know like mythritocracy like concept too right those things go very handinand like we can't control all of those things no matter what choices we make because we all are coming from a different place and that is random and out of our hands. We can only control so much. Yeah, I liked this quote that um Rain says where she goes um I suppose if we don't even have bootstraps with which to pull ourselves up, we had better become highway robbers and steal some off someone who has extra. Yeah, I was like I love that so much. But it's like yeah, playing by the rules does not guarantee anything for anyone. And so yeah, I thought that was pretty pretty good. Okay. So, what was your next one? My next one was, "How do we know the choices that we make in the moment are the right ones?" Well, we don't. We don't. Especially, we can see it with the parents, Candle and Lear, you know, feeling like now after the fact, they didn't make the right decisions. Candle's really upset with the decision that they made to hide away their daughter. Um, and she can't, she literally can't live with those choices and moves and leaves and just takes off. Yeah. But it's, you know, I felt sad for her cuz it's like what? You didn't have a choice. Choice of free will. You didn't have a choice to be with her. She would have been killed right away. You know, hiding her away somewhere gave her a better chance. But I think ultimately they feel like, well, she just ended up in the same situation she would have been. You know, you can have very, especially as we move through our lives, we can constantly question, did I make the right choice? You know, did I do things the right way? It's like, well, you only know what you know in the moment, and you can only make decisions based off of that cuz we don't have crystal balls guiding us. We don't have a weird creepy time clock giving us predictions. You could just try to do the best that you can and it just works out how it works out for better or worse or same, you know? Mhm. M. So she feels like it just ended up the same. I might as well have had time with her, but she doesn't know if she would have been murdered really quickly. She would have been like they would have found her. Yeah, for sure. I think. But you know, you don't know. Sure, she might not have been and they could have just had her the whole time, but maybe she would have had a personality if they had her. No, not really. Candle and Le don't have a personality either. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, especially Candle. I was like, "Oh my god, what do they just sit around moping together?" Okay, great. At least Rain had some chance for some fun for a little bit. So my third one um is is war as humans actually our default setting and is safety or peace an illusion or creation by the powers that be. Yeah. So there was one quote that just says, "I hardly believe that peace and war are opposites. I think to most people they're the same thing." And then there is no safe place in Oz is there, said Rain. There is no safety anywhere, said the cowardly lion. So it's like yeah I guess the question would be like you know if wars are constantly going on and you know people are always at odds with each other in some capacity then like really this idea of like peace is like how real is that and how much is like fabricated you know so interesting like I said so depressing okay I did have one more what the [ __ ] was the point of making time so confusing other than to add another layer of effed upness and oz. I don't know. I honestly don't even know, dude. What was the point of that? What was the point of that? Yeah, we got like a whole description of like how time works and it basically just like was inconclusive. It was like, well, we don't really measure anything by like years. It was kind of like, okay, remember that whole like weird discussion with Paul Rudd's character and forgetting Sarah Marshall where he's like I don't know how long I've been out here cuz like what does he say? Like I lost my watch or something. I can't remember. But anyways, it's like he's trying to describe time. Literally, that's how it felt like with the time description in Oz. It was like all over the place. It was just crazy. So, yes, I don't understand why that was necessary cuz they're like, "Well, it's by the light of the moon, then we add two years, but if it's a harvest, we minus 12 months." And it was just like the whole court system and apparently people really liked this. I just hated it. Um they people were saying it's very Alice Wonderland which I do get that vibe too. Um but in the worst way because like I said I just didn't like how unnecessarily chaotic it was. It's like hey I would have gone more with you guys too because you're so stupid. No really just kidding. But yeah, it was um yeah, that I mean then cuz by their time, does that mean Alphaba was like really only like 16? She wasn't in her mid-30s? Like what the heck? Oh, is it a It's like a dog year situation, you know? So, it's all a mess. It's all a mess. Yeah. Um like I get the use I guess, okay, here's the thing. I get the use of why they wanted to justify like why Gregory Maguire had to go through all these reasons about um Dorothy trying to defend herself and then they're going to squash him, you know, over and over. Yeah. But it's just cuz it was harped so much on every like point like the time like we had to go into this whole thing about it and it's just like is it necessary? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because really that was the only reason why the time discussion even came up at all was just because it's like, hey, don't try me as an adult. Yeah, exactly. And it was like because how old is Dorothy? And then they were all confused because she's saying she was only 16, but this happened like a long time ago, blah blah blah, you know, like 18 years ago. And so, yeah. Yeah, that was confusing to say the least. So hey, hey, but if someone was responsible for making up the measurements of time, Russell Brand would have done exactly that. So maybe that was part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what about political problems? You said you only had one written down. Yeah. Just one more that came up that was more new. Obviously, we still have everything else we've been wrestling with the whole time, but one that stuck out to me was the political scapegoat and you how it's used to inspire national pride. I couldn't figure out how else to word that. Maybe you have a better word for it. Mhm. But um specifically Dorothy being used as a political scapegoat in Munchkin Land cuz they said to them they're going to find her guilty no matter what. like they want to incite uh the passion of the people to justify going into war more like doing more political warfare with Oz. So they needed somebody to hold them accountable. And like how we forget, it's so true. We see it to this day how easily people forget the atrocities of our governments even, you know, for sure that they were celebrating and a couple people were so confused. They're like, "Yeah, I remember everybody celebrating in the streets that she killed her and that we weren't under her um government overreach." And now we're going to con condemn this person. They're confused too, but they're also going along with it. Yeah. So it's like m did you you forgot how they how that person why do we care? You know, it's cuz oh, we don't care. We just need somebody to rile rile up the people. Yeah. So yeah, I mean I put that I put the use of propaganda and language to change history. So the quote was, "Never underestimate the mood swings of the crowd. Dorothy's gone from being thought a heroine to being tagged as an assassin and Alphaba from wicked witch to martyr champion. At least in some circles the pendulum will swing. So, it's like we're only, like we said, we've gone three generations and in that time, Dorothy is now seen as the villain when literally she dropped the house on Nessa and was praised for essentially killing their like dictator for lack of a better word. Yeah. So, yes, our memories are short. Very, very short. We have things that happen today where people are actually martyrs because of it because it works in the political overreach at the time and suddenly somebody is compared to Jesus. It's great. No, no mirrors held up here whatsoever. It's just a guy sitting on It's just a guy sitting on a bucket. Like let's just That's all it is back there, you know? Just Russ Russell Brand sitting on a bucket getting ready to go into a cave. Honestly, that would make me feel better. And I think at this point that is what we're dealing with. So, hey. Okay. Yeah. Lots of symbolism here. Okay. Uh, do you have any more? Go. Uh, no. Nothing else that we haven't talked about. So, anything else that stuck out to you for this book? Yeah. I put uh people inherently need turmoil but also need to believe they are the exception to the system and can rise up so that they often act against their own be better interests. That was huge in this book. Um, and the lion says this, and I think this might be my favorite quote from this book. He says, "I have a theory, Rain. Hiding in the heart of every downtrodden commoner is where the romance of the crown lives strongest." And I'm like, "Oof, yeah, that says a lot right there." Because, yeah, I mean, that's what it comes down to. It's like, you know, how easily these groups of people are swayed one way or the other. Um, because they think that something that that person is riing them up about is going to actually benefit them when at the end of the day, will it? Probably not. Will it hurt other people? Probably. Yeah. Um, so there was that one. And then the one that pissed me off the most out of this whole book and made me so freaking mad was using disenfranchised groups to lead your armed forces. When they drafted the animals, I was so freaking pissed. I was like that was the turning point for me honestly where it's like you said that these books were just like super depressing and by the time we were done reading it, you were like ready to be done. That was the point I think where I was like this place sucks and like it's not getting any better and um I had a really really hard time with that because I was like obviously all of these laws have been like you know enacted to disenfranchise you know sentient animals and then what do they do? They literally use those sentient animals to fight in their armies, but they literally draft them, making it a criminal offense to not fight on their behalf. And it made me so mad. I was like, "Okay, this is officially like a trash place." Just like, it's so symbolic how many black people were drafted after slavery ended, you know, or during slavery, but even after like, okay, now fight our wars for us. Okay. Well, and also I mean it's really really super symbolic too because essentially what's going on right now in Oz in this book is a civil war. So it ties very much together with like what we're talking about here. Um crazy. So yeah, that um was kind of the turning point for me where I think I just got a little bit too mad at the book. Like and I get why he put that in there. It's like it's not that it shouldn't have been in there or anything like that. like it should have been in there, but it just made me so angry. Maybe something. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, so let's see here. I put a question in here cuz I was curious like what or who do you think Rain actually symbolizes? Like why do you think that her character was this way? Like what was her greater purpose? Because I feel like I kind of struggled to see that and understand it. So, I was wondering if you had any like takes on that. Yeah. I very much felt like what was the point of you? What was the point of this? Osma just came back. Mhm. And it wasn't necessarily I mean I guess cuz Tip kind of met her there. So then like you know he was there when the spell did the undoing. It was like all of that for that little that little thing. Yeah. You know I don't know. I just I had a hard time. It was like I thought that Rain's character would be more profound given that she is Alphaba's granddaughter and presumably is supposed to like carry on some type of legacy because she can read the grim, right? She has magic in the way that Lear doesn't. Um, and I kind of just felt like none of that really mattered. Yeah. So, I don't really get it. Like, am I missing something? I still don't really understand the magic system. It's like basically magic comes into play when wherever the wizard came from was involved but then not cuz they say the grim must have come from a different world too. Yeah. So yeah, I struggle with what the point of all of it was of every Yeah. Yeah. So, but the point of the grim was like cuz Osma I understand was on the throne, right? And this is the granddaughter but or daughter of Osma. The time also doesn't make sense. Well, no. Osma was the baby. So, Osma Tippetarius was the baby was the baby who got hidden away and then her I think dad was regent and then he got killed. the wizard hid her away and then he took over. So that's what happened. So it was her coming back. So it's like, but she didn't have magic or she did originally. I think she did have magic originally. I think she still does have magic. Um, so my understanding of the magic system is that not everyone has magic, but some people do. And then for a short time, Shell did make magic implements illegal also, so he banned them. I feel like the Grimmorary is just

a magic book that only the super powerful can read, which I think is cool except for the fact that why. Like I don't really feel like the Grimmorary was used in a way that was that influential. Yeah. Literally ever. Except to like fight over. Well, hey, but that is a little representative of magical books. Well, and maybe that's it. You know what I mean? And it's like maybe that's literally what it is is just all of the turmoil that humans create for ourselves based on all of these ancient texts that can be interpreted in so many different ways, right? Like and so is that the point? I mean, I feel like I I appreciate that, but then at the end of the day, I would have liked to see a little bit more of how that could have played out in the actual fantasy story. Yeah. You know, great. So, I do struggle with what Rain really symbolizes because at the end of the day, it kind of feels like she symbolizes like a drop in the bucket. You know what I mean? Like, not to make a pun. I didn't mean to do that, but like but like really just kind of like a inconsequential character to an end at the end of the day. You know what I mean? Yeah. So based on just this book alone, would you say that fictional fantasy books can be political and do they have any bearing on reflecting our real life society? Oh, after everything we just said, yeah, that'll do it. That'll do. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, so this is like the million-dollar question. We'll talk more about this when we rank everything as well, but just because we have finished technically the original Wicked Universe, are you happy with how this series ended? And do you have any unanswered questions that you would like answered? I'm only not happy with it because of so much I don't even know if it's filler, but just meandering. I would have been so much more happy with it if it was trimmed down truly. Um because like I said, but it's but is that is that unfairly biased? I if I didn't know that the author was intentionally leaving loose ends because that's how the world is, I would be so pissed right now. I'd be so annoyed, you know? So, it calms me down because like I know it's intentional, but it's it's annoying because we we use fantasy especially as a form of escapeism. Even if we want it to reflect problems within our own society, we still would like some kind of satisfying wrap-ups. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Do you have unanswered questions that you would like answered? I don't even care anymore. So, okay. So, I don't know that I was very happy with how this series ended. It made me feel very like it made me feel kind of nothing. And I don't like feeling like that when I get to the end of an epic series like this. Like, I want to either be like throwing my book across the room because I'm like, "Oh my god, I can't believe it ended like that. That's so crazy." Or I want it to be like I'm, you know, emotionally distraught because the ending was so like meaningful. You know what I mean? I want something and I feel like I just kind of finished this and was like, "Okay, it's over." That's And how do I read like 2,000 pages and not give a crap about anybody except maybe Alphaba who got killed in the first book? Well, okay. So, to go back to that, that is my one unanswered question that I would like to know more about. So, okay, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it because up until the very end, we actually have no idea what happens to Alphaba. It's implied that Dorothy kills her and that she, you know, obviously gets sizzled by the water and disappears, whatever. But then there are little hints throughout all of the books talking about how Alphaba Alphaba might be alive in some capacity, magically or otherwise, but we don't really know. Um, and then in this book, we got a couple major hints. One being that someone comes down to let Glenda out of her prison cell at the end of the book and she says, "Ugh, it took you long enough. We don't know who that is, but we get a very strong feeling that it might be Alphaba." And she also says, "You wicked thing. You wicked thing." Yeah. And then the other part was Nanny says, "Oh, like in passing she's like, oh, Alphaba came back ages ago." Yeah. But Nanny's kind of a cook. So, Exactly. So, it's like, is that just something she's saying? Like, so I think that my main unanswered question that will probably never get answered um is whether or not Alpha does live and if so, in what capacity. Um because since this is a fantastical world, there could be a lot of different kinds of explanations for that. So, yeah. Yeah. I would have liked Do you Do you think Alphaba is alive in this world? No. No. Yeah. I don't. No. Because I feel like if she were, she and her personality wouldn't be able to just sit back and let all this complete freaking I don't know better word to say it. Like [ __ ] happen. You know what I mean? Like like this wouldn't not on my watch. You know what I mean? Like I don't feel like she would have been okay with just letting the fates kind of play out. Like if you want to call it that. I feel like she would have intervened in some way. Yeah, especially finding out Shell is like an idiot. Yeah, she'd be like, "Have you guys seen this guy?" Yeah. Like, "Get out of here." Yeah, exactly. Like, come on. You know, so no, I do not think Alphabet is alive. I was kind of wondering honestly if the twist was going to be that um Rain wasn't actually like like yeah she was the daughter of Le and Candle but more of like a magical reincarnation of Alphaba like because of just the precarious situation under which she was conceived. I was like wondering if that was going to be the tiein but that never happened either. So no. What about you? You think no? I don't think she's alive. I think that Glenda actually died and that was like what she was seeing when she was dying. That's cool. It's like a Titanic moment like they're meeting at the banister at the top of the stairs and having their little time in heaven together. Yeah, for sure. That kind of moment cuz there is a lot of, you know, speculation about if she's alive or not and all those different ideas. So, that's what I think too. When I read it, that's how I took it is like, oh, she's dead and seeing stuff. Um, and then yeah, there's also some people were saying maybe she was a part of her was living in the grimmorary and so when the bond was broken or that, you know, the spells for everybody was broken, maybe she was let loose at that point from the grim. Yeah. Mhm. But we get no real solid concrete evidence of that. I think what Alphaba is, and I don't know what this, there has to be a name for this, but do you know how there's a conspiracies of celebrity figures that are secretly still alive? Oh, yeah. Elvis, Elvis, Tyin again, Michael Jackson. Like that kind of effect where they it's almost like this kind of hope that the the legend won't ever die. like that person that you put up on this pedestal that is going to come and save the day. Maybe not Michael Jackson Elvis saving the day, but you know, they're very well respected in their field. So, you come up with all of these excuses to keep them alive. Well, they must be in hiding. They must be doing this. They must be doing that because you don't want that piece to officially be dead. You don't want to accept it. Yeah. And I think that Alphaba represents that among other things, like not acting because you're waiting for that night and shining armor to come and save the day. Yeah. And we've talked about that theme before. It's like almost like she's getting she's being put on a pedestal up as like a martyr to this cause. When she was alive, she was the wicked witch of the West, right? So, it's like that's all being rewritten. Mhm. And yeah, it definitely ties in with the religious beliefs too of like if fate or a higher power is controlling everything, then we don't need to get up and do anything. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We don't need to do anything. It's not in my hands. Alphabuz it's in Alphaba's hands. It's alphabet say that, you know, I don't it's it's not my problem. I can't help any of these things that are going on. I'm little old me. I just it's it'll all work out or it won't. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, okay. Well, I'm curious. Are you excited to read the prequel? Now that we are closing the pages on the original collection, how do you feel about going into Elfie, which is substantially shorter. So, there's that. Yeah. Only because we can listen to Cynthia Arivo do it. Otherwise, I would be like, "No, I want to be done. I so want to close a chapter on this." Yeah. Yeah, but I will of course read it either way because of this. But I'm excited that you told me that little glimmer of hope and it's short. Thank heavens. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's how I feel too. Like I don't know that I really necessarily need to know more about Alphaba's like early childhood life. Like that is not necessarily what uh interests me about. I feel like we got a lot. So I don't know what is else is going to be in there. Yeah. I've only listened to maybe like seven chapters so far, so not enough to formulate an opinion. But yeah, I would say I'm not necessarily excited, but I'm kind of I am curious to find out like why, you know, if it's not a cash grab, why Gregory Magguire felt that all these years later given all the hype that's happened with the movies as well, like why it's necessary to have this book. So, that's going to be the question that we're going to be answering when we talk about Elfie and then obviously ranking everything um as well. But I'm I'd say curious. I don't know about excited. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Mhm. Yep. Do you have Do you have more quotes you want to share while we're here? I'll give you a couple. Um I may not know how to fly, but I know how to read. And that's almost the same thing. I loved that quote. That was a great quote. I have that. There were some good gems in there. There's going to be in a book this big. You're going to find something that's good. Well, that's the thing is that like like I said, that's why I still gave it a four star. Gregory Maguire is I called him a wordssmith. He's a wordssmith. Like he is a great freaking writer. It's just this kind of just seemed like he's like, I just want to write this thing for my own Yeah. Yeah. enjoyment to flush out these ideas. Want to Yeah. Like add in these fun little Yeah. whimsical conversations that lead to nowhere, you know, cuz he could. And hey, hey, I get I get it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Um, let's see. Deep fate is always run from behind the curtain from which we are asked to divert our attention.

Uh, Puggles says, "What population signs on willingly for slavery?" Glenda says, "You mean other than wives? M

which which we've gone full circle because if you guys remember when we were covering Ann of Green Gables, many a man married a woman just because having a wife is cheaper than a housekeeper. H So there's that. Yep. Okay. Um let's see. Oh, here we go. Don't let me get sappy on you, but when you get right down to it, every collection of letters is a magic spell. even if it's a moronic proclamation by the emperor. Words have their impact, girl. Mind your manners. I may not know how to fly, but I know how to read. And that's almost the same thing. So, that's what I put like the full. Yeah. I just love that idea because it goes back to the whole point of why we're covering these books is reading political. Are books political? Can fantasy be political? She's saying right now, I don't I may not know how to fly, but I know how to read. And that's almost the same thing because what comes with that a certain amount of obviously like freedom, right? So big themes. Okay. Do you have any more? Um I feel like especially us millennials and Gen Xers and Zers or whatever they're called can really feel this quote right now for our lifetime. Honestly, it appears history is going to keep happening despite our hopes for retirement. Yeah, I'm what do we say? Like I'm sick of being in historical events or something like that. Like we got the Twin Towers, we got co we got whatever the hell this is, you know? Like I'm sick of it. Let us have a second. Yeah. Like once in a lifetime events or whatever once in a lifetime event. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. So I get it, man. I get it. So was this one I liked. Writing never helped a soul do a thing except maybe to think. Oh,

every choice begins wisdom in its wake. If you just got to have if you just got to have the wisdom first, it wouldn't be a choice, just policy. Yeah. Yeah, I wrote that one down. I I feel like the lion got really wise in this one and I appreciated his character even more. For sure. Yeah, the lion was an interesting character for like one of the best ones in the series. Yeah, I would agree. Uh, okay. This is when the dragons came in and they firebombed the Emerald City. As the sole final target of the dragons, the dome suffered tremendous damage. Though not as much damage as the pickpocket, the proctctor, the laress, or the nursery orphan. It never collapsed upon the palace, but it remained scarred and defiant in the fog of history. So I liked that symbolism of like the capital building or whatever you want to call it still remain. The dome still remains but all of the regular people around. Right. So they're just talking about the pickpocket, the proctor, therressist, the nursery orphan all dead, right? But yet the like the symbolic capital dome is still there. And I'm like, hm, okay. Yeah, I feel like that was saying a lot. The last one I have is the hilarious one you sent me in case you didn't write it down. I did not. I think I You did not. Oh, I loved it. Liz texted me this yesterday. Oh, beautiful to make escape and leave this world behind. I had to If I had to stay another day, I'd lose my [ __ ] mind.

Oh, so funny. Yep. Yeah. Okay, let's see. You already said that one. Okay. So, I have You said that was your last one. That's my last one. Yeah, I have two more. Okay. So, the history of a nation was happening around you. Children don't often notice this, but it happens most years to be true. So, it's like kind of that concept of like, you know, I feel like when I talk to like family members or like clients who are older, they're kind of a little bit less phased by like things that are going on. And it makes me wonder like when you do zoom out, you know, it's like how your perception changes because of the fact that Yeah. when you're young, right, it's just so different. And then once you get to the age where you age where you are noticing everything, you're like, oh my god, this is so overwhelming. Yeah. And then do you eventually get to Yakal's age where you're like, I don't give a crap. It's like just the same stuff over and over and over again. Yeah. Um Yeah. And then the last one I put was, "The history of this war hinges on what every single person alive chooses to do or not to do."

There you go. I don't think I've ever been more depressed in a book series that we've done. Same. And I mean, we covered Hunger Games. That's pretty depressing. Especially that we're reading it right now. Especially, I think, is what's amplifying everything for me. You know, I think it's because Hunger Games, it's like it's not so long of a time span. I think that's a big thing. It's like we get the prequels, right? But as far as like moving to the into the future, it's kind of like we don't see how the new government is going to necessarily flesh itself out. And I feel like in Oz, it's over the course of three generations. So, we're seeing I mean that that is depressing seeing over three generations how like war just goes on and on and on and things temporarily get better and then get worse and then get better and then worse and then it's just kind of like the same mistakes getting repeated over and over again. So I think that's almost why it was more depressing at least to me because it's like we don't have that like Alphaba or Rain were not the Katniss in this story because there is no Katniss in a real life story right and I think that that's kind of like or so far right and so I think that that's kind of like the point and that can be very disheartening at the end of the day. Yeah. you know. Yeah. Yeah. So, so would you say though, all personal opinions aside, would you consider this book to be a positive or negative contribution to the canon?

You got to ask me another time. I just I'm really mad at it right now. So, yeah, it it did it did things. Okay. Okay. Neutral. Neutral. neutral. I wouldn't say that it could ever be considered a negative contribution. So, I'm going to go with positive contribution because if nothing else, I feel like you were to look at like all four books as like one entity, like they all like you you would need that whole story. Maybe not the whole story, like you could have cut out like hundreds of pages. Yeah. But I feel like the collection as a whole I think is a positive contribution to the canon for sure. Yeah. The collection as a whole for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you have any critiques that you want to talk about that we haven't talked about yet? No, it actually seemed like more people were were pretty good about it from the quick reviews that I read. They were pretty happy with it. Just the biggest critique was the needlessly wordy side tangents that we've talked a lot about. A lot of people felt like it they could have trimmed it down. Like it's so crazy to me like what a difference up the book would have been had it been trimmed down. Yeah, for sure. you know, and still got the point across. And actually, because I was so exhausted from it, like I couldn't see a lot of the stuff that you mentioned because I'm just like, I just can't anymore, you know? I just had to like do three pages about their little town like that they went to, you know, that nothing happened. I don't know. So, it's like, do we need to read an entire journey that we don't need to like a journey to nowhere? It was like a journey. A journey to nowhere. Yeah. Over again in circles and loop-de-loops, you know? That's the point. It's like literally that is the point. It's like Yeah, fair. I guess you know, it's like so far that's the political journey that we're on. But I'm just like I have so many other books I could be reading. I know. I know. I know. That's the struggle of it. I know. I would Okay, I'll tell you what. If I wasn't reading this for the podcast, this probably would have been a DNF. Even if it was a soft DNF because I just couldn't do it anymore. I just couldn't do it. It was off Especially cuz it was off to such a good start. We just rescued Dorothy and you know she's going

tired idiots. I don't know. Like just doing nothing. I don't care anymore. Yeah. So yeah, which is weird. It's s It's about It's disappointing. Yeah, it was a little disappointing. I agree for sure. Um but yeah, they had me until probably about halfway through and then when I realized nothing was gonna happen, I was a little bit like um disillusioned, I guess you could say. Yeah. Would you voice memo me? You're like, I don't know how they're going to wrap this up because they added more stuff to it or something. There's a lot of loose ends and there's only more now. They added more to it. They're not, you know, resolving anything. Yeah. Yeah. Um well, on Goodreads there's about 22,000 reviews and it gets a 3.84. So, not great, but not not great. Yeah, I feel like pretty much after Wicked, right, they're all below four stars, which is for overall ratings on what we we look at when we do these podcasts, it's pretty it's strange for such a best-selling series. Well, that's why, and we'll talk about this, I think particularly in the wrap-up episode, that's why I think it's so fascinating how much hype there is around the play and the movies because they're so wildly different. It's like it would be a really interesting like like phenomenon to know that you created this world and you created this story that people have, right? like the guy who made the Broadway play Steven Schwarz, right? Like extrapolated on to create something that is beloved by so many people, but then to know at the core of that what you actually wrote is not really beloved by that many people. Wouldn't that be kind of bizarre? Well, and because he took so long to write the series, cuz he originally wasn't anyways going to write past Wicked book one. Um, then having to, and I was finding this when I was looking up fun facts, um, not plagiarize the musical cuz I I there was something out of so annoying. I'd be so annoyed. He had to word. There's some stuff. Okay, so not I didn't actually write this fun fact down, but we'll get to some other ones in a second. But fun fact about Out of Oz is he had taken some pieces in the original Brams. Um, one of the Oz books that he did cuz he did series two, the original Wizard of Oz. Oz guy. What's his something? Bam. Bam. L. Frank Bomb. Bomb. Yeah, L. Frank Bomb. Okay. Not Bam. L. Frank Bomb. Took one of those Oz books and he had some elements and like some names changed. Uh, that he was tying into this. So, I think if we had read a few more Wizard of Oz books, we might have gotten the side stories that had nods. So, like that was kind of the point of those tangents to add that in. But he had mentioned that it was difficult to do some tie-in things because he would be plagiarized for plagiarizing the musical. So like I imagine just from that little tidbit like oh crap. Okay, I can't make this character like this or I can't take the story in Son of a Witch this way. Because you guys that haven't seen part two of Wicked yet, you know, it's very different than what we're seeing in the books, what we're talking about in the book. So if you haven't seen the musical, you haven't seen the part two movie yet. So imagine you're like, "Okay, I can't do what happened in the musical, but I need to wrap things up. I need it to go this way. I need to go that way." So I think that's why for us reading it after seeing all of this, we're like, "Okay, maybe this is going to happen." No, that doesn't happen because it can't cuz he doesn't want to get sued. Even though it's his original works, but his original works aren't even original either. Dude, what a mind game that is if you really think about it. So, I wonder if he felt like almost his hands were tied in such a way that he would take it this way, but then he can't take it that way. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure. And then I feel like it'd be hard to not have like at least for me. Okay. And maybe it's just because I'm kind of at the heart of myself sometimes. I can be a little vengeful. Okay. But like it would be very hard for me to like let's say you're just like a stranger and you meet them out somewhere and they don't know that you're Gregory Magguire, right? And like I feel like how it would be so hard for me to not get mad hearing so many people talk about how much they love the play or how insanely popular the movie is. And just knowing that like most of those people haven't read the book and probably a lot of them just based on the reviews that we've looked at did read the book and didn't even like it. I'd be like but this is literally what the whole point was. Like that would just really make me crazy. I don't know. But like obviously I feel like when you're creating stuff and putting it out there, you're choosing to put yourself open there to criticism. And I'm sure that he has to separate himself from his work otherwise go insane. But like that would be really hard to be like that wasn't even the point. But I'm glad you enjoy it. Yeah. I wonder cuz he does do a lot of interviews and he seems very like he loves all of it too, you know, cuz I think because he knows it has to be made into a digestible way. I don't know. He has to have some thick skin. Thick skin big time because Yeah. to it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I was thinking about that. You're literally seeing this stuff everywhere now. He's going into any store and it's wicked merchandise everywhere and most of the people haven't even read the books yet. And it and but I mean it's either thick skin or a thick ass paycheck. It's probably both. That'll help, right? I mean, yeah. It's like what does my husband say? I think they do. They have to make it digestible. I mean, in some of these themes that, you know, kids can pick up then it it expand. I think he sees the positive the positive contribution that it can make in society, you know. But I just I really wonder if it was hard for him to write the story after the story's already been written. Yeah, probably past wicked. Yeah, cuz that's really what it's past wicked to play the devil's advocate though. However, no one forced him to write these other books. Like he didn't have to do this. True. So he could have just like cuz you know Wicked came out 1995, right? The play came out made every made it super famous. it wasn't necessary for him like you know from even like a monetary standpoint at that point to continue writing wicked books you know what I mean so it's like I'm sure he made a lot but he didn't need to yeah yeah this was a choice you know what I mean so yeah but that would be really tough to it would be tough for me to just see so many people missing the whole entire point especially because it's one thing I feel like to write a piece of fantasy right and have people miss the point that's not so like in your face about the point. Yeah. But it's like clearly he had several political agendas otherwise you don't write a book like this and then to see it just like fly right over the heads of everyone would just be I don't know that'd be tough. I would say maybe his goal is like hopefully it inspires people to read it but I think cuz it ends up being so different is tricky. It is tricky because I think people expect one thing and then he goes to a lot of therapy like to help himself cope and manage like that separation. Yeah. Yeah. Be tough. Okay. So, do you have any bonus questions for me? No. My bonus question was do you think Alphab's dead? So, yeah, we did it. Yeah. Do you have any other ones? Nope. What about fun facts? What do you got his fun fact?

full circle moment. Okay, so Rain continues flying on until she at last reaches the seas and she keeps on going out over the ocean, planning to drop the grimmory into its depths and keep going. So this actually mirrors the first line in wicked, the life of times of the wicked witch of the west out of Oz concludes with the following statement. A mile above anything known, the girl balanced on the wind's forward edge as if she were a green fleck on the sea itself, flung up by the turbulent air and sent wheeling away. So is that cuz I saw something about that too. So is that how Wicked starts or like Yeah, that's what it says. I did not fact check. I'm sure it's correct. It seems like a weird Yeah, it was on like a super fans like a whole website that's built out covering these books. So cool. I I um I have the book right here. I could look if you really want me to. No, it's okay. I was just kind of curious about it. Oh, I'll fact check myself. Let's see.

Oh my gosh. How many quotes from other people? Yeah, it's literally literally prologue on the yellow brick road of Wicked book one. So, same way it starts is the same sentence it ends with, which I do love that. I know. That is nice. That is nice. You could have just given us a little more personality and then we would have been happy with Rain. Okay, I do I do have Sorry, I have to interject because I forgot about this and I want to make sure it's in this episode and that I ask it to you because I was curious. So apparently Tip So Osma was in Son of a Witch. H where do you remember this at all? I don't remember. Yeah. So there was an Easter egg there um that I when I was doing my research I saw that Tip did make an appearance in Son of a Witch. I do not remember that at all. Can I just say how stupid these people are in Oz? Like his name, the name was Osma. Tip tip. Tip. Tip. What is it? Tippetarius. Osma. And they go with tip. Mhm. Mhm. Okay. Mhm. Okay. All right. Well, and Okay. Can we talk about this is one thing that also bothered me is that like Okay. So, Tip is the name of her friend and then wasn't her otter's name Tap? Mhm. Like, can we like what's that about? Yeah. Why did we do this? Why is that? Why was that the choice that was made? I don't know. I don't either. Okay. All right. What else you got? You know what? That was a pretty good fun fact. I'll leave it at that. I did some other ones, but we could save it for another time. Sounds good. There you go. So, do you feel good about closing the chapter on The Wicked Years, books one through four. I don't feel good about it, but I'm happy to do it. Happy to close it. Happy to do it. I'm happy to be done. H. But we're not done yet. You guys come back next week for Elfie. We'll tell you if it's worth a read or not. Yes, we'll tell you. Unfiltered. Better or worse. So, make sure you're subscribed everywhere you like favorite podcast. That way you don't miss out on that video as well as our normal Tuesday episodes. Next week, Tuesday will be our Am I the a-hole Thanksgiving episode, which was a fan favorite last year. So fun. And then Friday will be Elfie. And then we'll be doing our homework back behind the scenes and watching Wicked, which you better be, too, cuz the following week will be the wrap-up. So stay tuned for that. So excited to talk about it with you guys, and we'll see you next Tuesday and Friday. And Friday. Bye bye.