Ep 59 "Dark Romance *ENTERS THE CHAT* w/ 50 Shades of Grey" | THE EVOLUTION OF ROMANCE BOOKS!

Today Ashley and Liz are setting the stage for our mini episode series about the infamous 50 Shades of Grey trilogy which starts this Friday and continues on for five episodes, including the original three books, a surprise bonus book, and a wrap up episode covering the movies and all of our final thoughts! 

But today, buckle up for a spoiler free episode all about… ROMANCE NOVELS! The genre that changed the game for publishers… for readers… for writers… and for women. We've never read this series and want to examine it through a certain lens - what exactly did this series do for the genre as a whole? And who paved the way to make Fifty Shades of Grey a mainstream romance sensation? 

We take you wayyyyy back to the “first” romance novel, explore the OG pioneers of the genre, explain what defines a book as “romance” in the first place, and delve into how the content and themes have changed over time, influencing literature of ALL genres. We discuss the different evolutions and iterations of these books primarily written by women, for women, and how despite the success, popularity, and numbers to back it up… the romance genre is repeatedly labeled as “less than literature” or reduced to “chick lit.” We want to (NEED TO) talk about why.

And don’t worry, even though it’s a little heavy, we still have a faves and fails and smash or pass, romance edition! 

Check out this author interview! | Callie Hart NYT Bestseller Author of Quicksilver! | https://youtu.be/CED5s7qDBdQ?si=8xtIRO1IzX6Rsld4

Shop bookish apparel worn in this episode!

Ashley is Wearing: ACOTAR Valkyrie Tee from @thebeanworkshop | Use code: BOOKBESTIES10 to save!  | * https://thebeanworkshop.store/products/to-the-stars-who-listen-and-the-dreams-are-answered-tee-shirt?_pos=9&_sid=823f6afe6&_ss=r

Liz is wearing: “If You Want to Save Animals, Stop Eating Them” Baby Tee from @dont.eat.the.homies | https://donteatthehomies.com/products/save-animals-tee

Any link with an * is an affiliate link through the service Magic Links and is eligible for a commission to us with no extra cost to you. Thank you for helping support our podcast!

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Articles / Resources:

• Writing 101: What Is a Romance Novel? Masterclass.com
• These Authors are Putting the Dark in Dark Romance wusf.org for NPR 
• A Brief History of the Romance Novel by Amanda Pagan nypl.org 
• Evolution of the Romance Novel by Cristin Harber cristinharber.com
• Pamela and the Early Origins of the Romance Novel smu.edu
• The Dark Romance of Ann Radcliffe by V.H. Leslie fiction thisishorror.co.uk
• How Jane Austen’s Resolve Sculpted Literary History by Evan Swensen medium.com
• Gothic Novel Masterpieces: Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights by Yehuda M.S. medium.com
• The History of the Wonderful Romantasy Genre by Danielle Tomlinson bookstr.com
• The Evolution of Dark Romance:

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Besties and the Books
• 7:07 How Our 50 Shades Journey is Going So Far?
• 8:50 Favs and Fails Romance in Media Edition
• 20:25 What Do You Think of with the Term “Romance Novel”?
• 23:37 Our Favorite Romance Book Genre
• 26:45 What is a Romance Novel and Discussing the History of the Genre
• 50:28 When did Romantasy Enter Book Genres
• 54:45 When did Dark Romance Enter the Chat?
• 1:18:10 Best Selling Romance Books of All Time
• 1:20:00 Romance Books and media IRL
• 1:26:30 Unhinged Smash or Pass

Transcript

0:00

[Music] hey you guys I'm Ashley And I'm Liz And this is the Besties in the Books podcast Welcome Welcome Welcome Happy Tuesday Whatever day you're watching this happy day Happy day Today we're going to be setting the stage for our next mini episode series all about the infamous 50 Shades of Gray Here we are Here we are guys Um you know buckle up for a spoiler-free episode You know if you guys have been around for our many episode series for a while you know that usually we will do a episode to kind of introduce the topic that led us to choose this book series Um and so that's what we're doing today We're talking all about romance the genre romance novels their origins and how we went from the first romance novel which we'll talk about um and made it all the way to Fifty Shades of Gray being in the mainstream and what that means to the genre as a whole So obviously you know I just want to give the little disclaimer here right off the bat because when uh I was doing all the research for this I and I voice memoed Ashley this I'm like people literally have probably written their like entire dissertation on this topic and we're going to like cover it in an hour Yeah Um so you know obviously we're going to skip over a lot like we're just hitting the bullet points of you know what we thought was important As it's a reader's digest version if you will Yeah Yeah We can't cover every detail and nor do we want to like that's not really the point of this It's just to kind of show that there's been a lot of history We want to give credit where credit is due and we want to kind of understand um where Fifty Shades of Gray lands Yeah On that spectrum in the romance novel world Um so that's where and like dark romance you know it enters the chat and at what point and where did that lead us because we know right now in book talk and Bookstagram it's huge It's been huge Yeah It's a huge contributor We'll talk about that at the end of just like how this the overall success of the romance genre in general right now Um so yeah like how did it contribute to dark romance becoming a little bit more mainstream I guess you could say Um so uh as we know uh if you guys have been like following along this whole time you know that we usually like to chitchat with you guys over on the Fable app So we have um templates on Instagram that you guys can tag us in and follow along Um we've got fable chats up for all the books So please join us over there And our second episode where we'll officially start covering the books themselves Um so book one Fifty Shades of Gray it'll be dropping next week on Friday 52 Then after that we will have a mini episode for uh every book in the original trilogy So we're at this point we're not going beyond the original trilogy We know they're spin-offs We'll talk about those later but we will be doing the original trilogy um one surprise book So we're not announcing that one quite yet That'll just be a little treat for you guys And then we'll also be covering the movies as we usually do Um and our final kind of wrap-up thoughts Um do you have anything to add to that or you feel like I cover I covered it am I forgetting but when it comes to our miniseries Liz have we read Fifty Shades before doing this miniseries we have not This was new to us Yes I think they started in 2011 the hype and the the what what the pandemonium circulating Fifty Shades of Gray So we witnessed it but we did not consume it So no it's new to us It is new Completely new to me Yeah like new to us We haven't read these books before Um so that's great I did watch the first two movies when they came out but I remember nothing of them As you say I do not remember this place Um remember nothing about them And um I didn't actually watch the last one so I also have no idea how the series concludes So it's going to be like fresh eyes going into it again which is great Um so yeah today we're just going to be diving into all things romance how we made it to Fifty Shades of Gray and we're going to be setting the scene for this book series and really breaking down um how the history of romance made Fifty Shades possible and what that means for the genre for uh books written by women for women etc But before we get into that we just wanted to say thank you so much for being here Thank you guys so much for being here kicking off our fourth miniseries of our Lifetime as a podcast We love having you guys here Thank you so much Make sure to like follow and subscribe anywhere you like to listen to your favorite podcast including YouTube And you can get those like check-ins and updates for us on our buddy reads and everything like that by joining the Fable app like Liz said and searching Besties at the Book Besties and the Book Club and then Instagram and Tik Tok at Besties in the Books podcast as well and we're going to be linking all the sources and stuff from Liz's research All credit goes to her She is our research queen um journalism degree like all of those things She is amazing and we'll link that down all those in case you want to investigate further past this 1 hour little taster that we're giving you today So yeah make sure like follow subscribe all those things And we can't wait to bring you that You guys go join the Fable app because it is a hoot It is hilarious Yeah it's really fun It's like reacting to just the random things that are going on in Fifty Shades so far Yeah And there's a lot there's a lot of them Yeah It's a very like some books we do for book club cuz we always have it in the fable chat you know fable app Um you know it's more quiet cuz there's not that much to talk about and then you have some that it's just a party if you will Yeah Well and I think you just you just have to react sometimes You don't know who am I going to tell okay this that's why the app's perfect You go into the chapter and it's like oh five people already said the same critique let me add to it cuz it's just like so ridiculous or whatever Yeah Well and I think too it's like coming off of you know Ashley and I tried to be intentional about this It's like coming off of Hunger Games you know that was obviously so intense serious important politically right now and we wanted to kind of like balance the scales a little bit there And so we were like well what can we do coming off of that to have like a fun good time and uh this is delivering for sure For sure Um so that being said why don't we just really quick talk about like how how's your Fifty Shades journey going for you so far i think Okay All I want to say right now because you guys are going to have tune in the episodes I think Liz and I are having a different time For the first time for the first in I would say in series in any of the books that we're doing we're having different takes and it'll be interesting to like hash it all out So this will be the most so far polarizing miniseries I think her and I have done together We'll see though We'll see That's what I That's the what I'm gauging so far Well what about you i mean I'm I'm literally having the best time So um you know I love that it's bound to happen that we're going to have opposing viewpoints on you know some of these books that we read and we've had like little ones here and there but not anything so extreme So that would be I think just great if we have opposing viewpoints because then we can kind of get both sides of the coin So yeah I'm having a great old time I was just talking to um our friend Rinda who's in the early Fable chat too um with us just kind of talking about it and she's really enjoying it too but I told her I was like yeah I have it literally like now I have the physical copies the ebook copies and the audible copies I'm like I'm out of control She's like yeah you're going all the way in I'm like yes I've gone all the way in Yeah All in all day All day That's where I'm at Okay So all right So that's just our little update We don't want to give away too much because book one's episode will be coming out soon Um but why don't we just do a little fave and fail romance theme Yeah Yeah let's do it Let's go Okay So and this could just be like open-ended romance theme of like books movies shows whatever you know of your whole life It could just be something that stands out to you Um okay Some Yeah Yeah that sounds good So for me I wanted to give a shout out to and I have the two books here because even though I'm only a little over halfway through the first book I had to give a shout out to these books on here So Under Your Scars by Ariel N And Anderson and then The Little Nolla Delilah and Under Your Scars Nolla also by Ariel Anderson I wanted to give these a shout out because I um this was a recommendation from several people um on Bookstagram and I started listening to the audio version Immediately bought the physical copies as well Like I said I've only just finished part one And if you've read it you know but it's one of in my opinion the best dark romances that I've read so far because it's just so gut-wrenching and like rip your heart right out status And like literally when I finished part one I was like I feel like this should be the end of the book because I'm so like emotionally distraught but I'm not There's like literally half is still left Like o Yeah Yeah And this little novela too So I'm like okay I had to like stop reading it for the night read something else like let it settle and absorb and then I went back to it the next day Um and I have to admit I'm a little terrified of like how this is going to end because I feel like it's going to be one of those that like haunts you You know what I mean it'll haunt me Um but it's so good And um I think cuz I think I Googled it already I'm pretty sure these are the only two books that she has out so far So go give her a follow And if you like dark romance check it out But definitely check check the trigger warnings on this because it's got some doozies for sure Um and then for my fail I was trying to think I was like you know have I read anything that I really disliked lately that was like a fail in the romance department you know other than the things that we've already talked about in the past with you guys like the hockey romance thing and stuff Um and I thought about it and I was like you know what i actually want to give my romance fail to that movie that came out with Nicole Kidman uh Baby Girl because I feel like it had such potential and just it's squandered it away Yeah Um and because I feel like we don't really get dark romance portrayed very often in movies Yeah Um and in general And so you know we got romcoms for a while right they're kind of making a little bit of a comeback but not really dark romance No Um it's rare And so when I saw that that was coming out I was like I feel like when you mention it dark romances tend to cross those like hard lines that we really as a society are obviously against you know like um I'm talking like underage stuff you know So it's not It's sad You're right like that There's no representation for like positive consensual dark romances Yeah That I can think of I can't think of any I mean Fifty Shades obviously was made into a movie So other than that Yeah Yeah I can't think of any Yeah that's what I'm saying I feel like anything that has like dark elements and romance in it is going to be something like you know what comes to mind for me is like Game of Thrones where like there's romance in it for sure but I wouldn't consider it like a dark romance genre You know what I mean it's just kind of there It's like not that's not the main focus of it Um and oftent times like the dark elements are non-consensual for example Yeah Exactly Yeah So yeah I mean so when this I saw that this was coming out and Nicole Kidman I love her She's great right i was like "Okay awesome." Like these people are obviously two adults You know I get the sense this this is going to be a consensual relationship that has dark romance themes Um and while it was fine it was just kind of like I was hoping that it would be good enough to where enough people would go see it and it would get hyped and then that would encourage more to be made And I feel like it kind of just went flat because it wasn't that good Yeah And so for that reason it is my fail because I'm like why can't these movies be made like I feel like we should be able to do that now I don't know I mean and we have so many books now So many that are amazing So you don't need to like reshape the wheel or whatever Yeah Just like just make one Get one of those Pay that author Let's write a script Great Done Yeah I mean you know obviously we've heard you know rumors that books like Butcher and Blackbird are going to get picked up and turned into a movie Something like that would be amazing because you know you haven't read that one yet right no But obviously I hear so much about it Yeah I mean that one right there would be perfect because I don't think that there's anything in there that would be any more triggering than like a comedy horror movie You know what I mean like yeah totally Um so I feel like come on it's time Yeah it's 2025 Like what's happening right now we like uh take your blindfolds off like you fat cats in the boardroom and realize yeah I have all these references I'm accidentally making this and I've been in it for two days now trying to finish this book in time But uh yeah No it's just like they're so dumb to not accept you know that you know that these huge producers they see the sales They see this extreme like boom in I mean Barnes Barnes & Noble was like saved because of book talk Yeah They're about to go bankrupt and I would say half of that genre was romance you know Well I'll give you the stats at the end of this episode Oh great Awesome So like you don't think that's going to translate to TVs and movies like you dummies The Hello the industry is struggling as a whole Why wouldn't you capitalize on this huge surge everybody we look at fan art We look up all these things that just artists are making You don't think you can make that mainstream and be successful It makes me want to rage quite frankly Well yeah It's you know and it ties back into a lot of things we're going to discuss in this episode about how when something is predominantly made for women and women are the ones who enjoy it We It tends to get a lot of hate where the hate might not be due Okay that's all I'm going to say right now cuz we're going to dive into it and we'll go off on crazy tangents but why don't you tell us your fave and fail and then we'll get into the all that stuff in just a sec So for me anytime I think of romance I instantly think of all the amazing romcoms that we grew up with Yeah You know 100% Think of those fun romcoms like 10 Things I Hate About You and Sleepless in Seattle which like not that much comedic It's pretty tragic and sad but it's you know awesome All of those like pop on on a rainy day kind of comfort movies So those are my faves all those Romeo and Juliet even Titanic's not a romcom but those romance movies that was like the prime of lime you know late '9s and early 2000s all they made they pumped them out they were all blockbuster hits like Cameron Diaz was in so many of them um I don't I didn't like the ones that you know the 27 dresses like that girl Katherine Higgel don't love her movies but yeah you loved it I get it get on board with it But um like overall that was just a time you know even I was just watching with my girls 13 going on 30 Like those just so I just love those Those are faves I always think of like uh Never Been Kissed Yeah So good And like uh How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days Oh yes Which that was my prom dress and I still have it I remember Yeah It's just Yeah I feel like those one you know Sweet Home Alabama Those were the days They were Alabama Oh yeah that's a great like enemies to lovers right like I mean they were lovers enemies to lo like the back and forth Yes exactly Let's just reminisce I am like let's just sit off and stare into space for a second Leave us down in the comments because you can now comment on the Spotify podcast I haven't checked to see if Apple's updated but let us know your favorite romcoms or like romance movies of yester year like what are the classics that you guys love because maybe we'll all discover some new ones together or we can yeah just like reminisce I'd love that and obviously YouTube you can comment too We'll put that we'll do a box on Instagram I will say I think that I aunt mentioned on the podcast before but I watched that new one with Will Ferrell and Reese Witherspoon that just came out Oh I haven't seen it It's so good It's so cute I love them both It was excellent So it was funny It was like a true romcom Yeah Like it was I wouldn't say that you know the ones I feel like that we watched when we were growing up were a little bit more like PG-13 This was definitely like an R but like more I would say for like language and stuff Um so not necessarily kid appropriate but very funny and just sweet and cute and I really enjoy it Yeah So maybe that's what we're kind of missing like that border PG-13 line like that demographic cuz they definitely are trying occasionally to bring a romcom to the scene or a good romance movie but it's just it's constantly falling flat So that's my fail is kind of what we already talked about Just the movie industry as a whole is just struggling to like figure out who they are anymore You know the streaming services has really changed Yeah I think they're having an identity crisis Totally You know and streaming services hold the cards but then they don't make as much money because you're not It's just different And they've had a couple of blockbuster successes postco but before co the movie industry was struggling So it would be nice to be seen and heard and them start making movies that people want to see again Well I think it's just weird too that it's like we make up half of the population and yet we spend a lot more money and yet still we can't seem to get what we want out of popular media in a lot of ways And it's bizarre to me It's like you know they would just rather let's make another Hulk Maybe this one will stick this time You know it's like really though You know what you could do is you could make a Masked Man movie for the ladies and we would all go watch it How about that because it's like the closest we can get are the superhero movies and the horror movies Yeah That's just I'm just telling you guys what you already know It just hurts It hurts my brain Like I just It hurts my brain Well wow We'll talk about why because it's a long history So let's go back in time No I'm just kidding Okay so before we go back in time I just wanted to kind of like pose the question to the group Yeah What do we personally think of when we hear the term you know quote unquote romance novel mhm So like for me even though I have a room full of romance novels I I still lots of times picture the old school Danielle Steel romance novel paperback you know that it's kind of like the female version if you will of like the Tom Clancy paperback you know at used bookstores That's still what I picture which is interesting because that's a very like dated idea and clearly that's not I don't have anything like that in my book room Um but for some reason that is still what comes to mind What about you yeah I feel like I've been changing my um thinking And honestly the only reason that's fully making a change in my brain is because I tag you know I do all the SEO search engine stuff for our our episodes And I always am like thinking of different ways to phrase it And when we're talking about a romance book I put romance novel in it So I'm kind of like tricking my brain to retrain it because yeah before 100% that would have been the first thing I think of the Friends episode where they're making fun of Rachel for what she's reading And we growing up with that like we were influenced by all that stuff the Fabio books the Fabio covers And now at this point I've come to the like realization that it's like okay that category was heavily criticized for a long time and made fun of What if it's not even bad i've never read one Yeah You know me neither What if it's not even like bad you know obviously there the people that were reading it read it like obsessed that you can't tell me it was bad then You know it couldn't have been that bad because we've read some funny bad books that you just you read it and then you move on with your life You know you can't gain that kind of obsession without some validity to it Yeah So yeah that is what I used to think of but I'm really trying to retrain my brain here Yeah And same It's And I think that's what's so interesting and the reason why I brought that up is because and I wanted to ask that question because I feel like a lot of us have some really deeply ingrained ideas about what the romance genre is and what romance novels are Even if we are completely open-minded about it trying not to go into the genre with you know preconceived notions we're totally okay reading a ton of different types of romance We still can hold a lot of these ideas and there's reasons for that and that's what this episode is going to be delving into So I just say ask yourself what you think when you hear romance novel and then take that and move forward through this episode with that in mind Mhm So that being said what kind of romance do you prefer to read i'm just curious And why for me it has to be at this point in my life I'm in like my fantasy era So I personally don't like um romance forward books I like more a fantastical element Dark romance I haven't read one yet that I'm like obsessed with So so Liz and I come on different sides of the coin with that as well And I want to find a romcom that I like but you know I also am unmotivated because a contemporary to me it's just not it's not the zone that I'm at right now And I just want to read about dragons and magic So yeah It's like it's not to say that won't ever change but that's just who I am and what I want to consume right now Yeah It's more like you like your fantasy with a dash of romance Yeah Yeah That's where I'm at I'd say for me like I just I love romanty Like we know this you know I love romanty I love um and that can be like a spectrum too with very little romance or a lot of romance Like I like all different types you know depending Yeah Um but I do love I love dark romance guys It's great It's one of my favorite genres ever Um and you know I think my first dark romance I ever read was Haunting Adeline And I was like"This is great." And I just like went down the rabbit hole from there I didn't really know that I was starting with like this notorious book Like I had no idea I was just like "Oh this you know the pretty cover I'm going to get this one." And then I started listening to the audio and Teddy Hamilton hooked me and the rest is history Um so yeah I mean those are the ones I prefer to read Again I do struggle with contemporary romance if it doesn't have dark themes Yeah Um but you know we stay open because I feel like sometimes when we try things um that we know very little about then we actually end up really liking it I feel like the uh Haven Ever After series was a really good example of that because that was very light and kind of almost romcomy but it had the you know like fantastical elements to it So we ended up liking it So just Yeah Yeah I think the potential's there for me because yeah I love the classic romcoms and from what I hear there's a lot of books like that So maybe finding the right one But I don't know I think for me what I get stuck on is like I have a hard time liking a male main character if he doesn't have a dark side I'm I may maybe that says something weird about my personality I don't know But I'm just like if he's too nice or just like too normal I'm like and I use normal you know in air quotes obviously Then it's just kind of like falls flat for me But you know I'm always open Change my mind you know Yeah Yeah Okay So just to set the scene as we've done in the past let's go through what the actual definition of a quote unquote romance novel is So this is I always like to just go with the actual like dictionary definitions or what you will that way we can kind of use that as a starting point and then go from there So according to Wikipedia a romance or romantic novel is a genre fiction novel that primarily focuses on the relationship and romantic love between two people typically with an emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending Yeah So obviously we can see in that definition you know and we're not going to call out every problematic thing that comes up uh because we'd be here for the rest of our lives Um but the thing that I noticed immediately was romantic love between two people And obviously that's problematic within itself Yeah And doesn't even encompass a lot of the romance novels that we read today Um but that is the dictionary definition According to the Romance Writers of America a romance novel must have a central focus on the development of a romantic relationship between two people Again two people Yeah The other criteria for a romance novel is that it must have an emotional throughine and build to an optimistic conclusion So those are just the first things that came up from you know as close to a reputable online source as I could find that actually defines it Um so what I was curious to find out is like okay I've read enough dark romance to know first of all lots of them aren't between two people only Second of all lots of times they don't have an optimistic conclusion So I'm like"Okay how are these typical definitions of romance novels then different from dark romance?" And so I found a really good article Um and I'll just be kind of like calling out my sources as we go through but we will list them all in the show notes for you guys Um but this is according to an NPR article entitled"These authors are putting the dark and dark romance." So they define dark romance as a subgenre of romance novels with darker themes immature content These stories often come with content warnings morally gray characters and plots riddled with trauma and violence Popular tropes that make up a chunk of these novels include mafia stalking and kidnappings There's also an element of darker sexual themes with these novels exploring all sorts of taboo kinks including but most certainly not limited to BDSM dubious consent and knife play So it's obviously I mean it's exactly like how it sounds right like dark romance is taking a lot of the similar tropes as you would find in a typical quote unquote romance novel but then exploring a lot of um more society taboo Yeah topics Mhm We got to go back We got to go back in time to figure out you know cuz I'm thinking like okay obviously like romance came from somewhere Also I did want to just kind of put this out there We're talking about romance novels and how the genre became popular in literature and popular culture I understand that is not necessarily the same as erotica And I wanted to make that distinction clear because that we're not necessarily going down that road cuz that's a completely different discussion And like literally when I was looking into erotica I mean they have like Egyptian hieroglyphics they consider to be erotica Totally Yeah Um so we're going back in time guys So if you pull out my chart here you see the way that eagle's positioned Okay You know what that means which like that's amazing Like I love that right like the fact that we humans have always been humans Humans have always been humans you know It's great It's like it's society and it's different um you know iterations depending on where you live how the society set up etc That's going to put different constraints on how people are you know able and allowed to express themselves in these ways I think that's what's important to keep in mind But I did want to just mention that I understand that it is different and that erotica goes back forever and even probably romance novels go back further than this But for the sake of this discussion we are going to start here Okay So the modern romance novel or mass market romance novel as we know it today has its origins in the romantic fiction of the 18th and 19th centuries In novels such as Samuel Richardson's Pamela the Gothic romances of Anne Radcliffe Anne Radcliffe and the works of Jane Austin readers were introduced to a new form of fiction one that primarily focused on the lives and struggles of female protagonists Although modern romance novels have expanded to include both authors and protagonists of different genders races sexualities and abilities historically romance novels separate themselves from other genres by being primarily written by women for women and about women And um I think that's very important So that came from um an article called a brief history of the romance novel um from new yorkpublic library.org by Amanda Pagan Um so I liked that because I was like okay I feel like that article really in a concise way explained that you know yeah sure romance novels are written for everyone However once we start talking about where they came from that becomes really important to keep in mind Yeah that these novels were written by women for a purpose Not just to tell a silly little story but for a much larger intent and reason Yeah Yeah definitely So okay So we talked about Pamela which was actually written by a man Okay So the first romance novel or a lot of people consider this to be the first romance novel was called Pamela or Virtue Rewarded I guess that was its alternate title Um written by this dude named uh Samuel Richardson in 1740 Okay Oh that alter what is it called what did you say that alternate title Well virtue rewarded Well and that's why I thought it was interesting because I was like okay you know yeah I can get on board with Anne Radcliffe I can get on board with Jane Austin but like what's this dude Samuel Richardson like doing in here like I even had to I googled him because I was like maybe like this was um a lady named Samuel Like I don't know like what's going on uh no it was definitely a man Okay so this um okay so I'm just going to be quoting one of the articles here Um originally published in 1740 Pamela tells the story of a 15-year-old maidservant named Pamela Andrews whose employer Mr B A wealthy land owner makes unwanted and inappropriate advances towards her after the death of his mother Pamela strives to reconcile her strong religious training with her desire for the approval of her employer in a series of letters and later in the novel journal entries all addressed to her impoverished parents After various unsuccessful attempts at seduction a series of sexual assaults and an extended period of kidnappings the rakish Mr B eventually reforms and makes Pamela a sincere proposal of marriage In the novel's second part Pamela marries Mr B and tries to acclimatize to her new position in upper class society Okay so that was from Wikipedia That's just like a little summary of what this supposed first romance novel in 1740 was about So what I found Exactly So what I found interesting was that Pamela Andrews the heroine of Pamela represents Richardson's insistence upon well-defined feminine roles and was part of a common fear held during the 18th century that women were quote too bold In particular her zeal for house whiffery was included as a proper role of women in society Although Pamela and the title heroine were popular and gave a proper model for how women should act they inspired a storm of anti-Pamelas Ooh Yes Good So exactly So it's almost like the first quote unquote romance novel was written by this dude who was like I'm going to write this to basically show like it's a propaganda Exactly Like that's literally what it is I'm going to write something popular that a bunch of people are going to read that shows where women should you know what women's station should be where they should remain what they should be doing their house housewife duties right um and I love that while it was popular then we started getting different kinds of romance novels coming out with a lot of counter ideas written by women instead Good Yeah So yeah So that answered that question cuz I was like wait what like where did this dude come from and you know maybe it's arguable but maybe without him we wouldn't have had such a crazy like resistance against that idea It happened so soon you know True true So this little blurb about an Radcliffe Okay So what I did was I kind of like went almost like chronological order So that was in 1740 Okay So later on in the 1700s uh so we're looking at 1791 we had Anne Radcliffe come into the scene Um and this article is called The Dark Romance of Anne Radcliffe Um and it's from this is horror blog which I thought was actually it was a really cool article So it says "Of all the early Gothic writers one woman in particular had a considerable impact on the genre the great enchantress of her age." So that's what they called her and Radcliffe established many of the tropes of the Gothic as well as providing literary weight to a genre that was regarded by many as mere sensationalist fiction In fact Sir Walter Scott praised her as the first poetess of romantic fiction and she was considered by her contemporaries to be as significant as Shakespeare and Milton Her fiction was so popular that her fourth novel the mysteries of Dulfo I can't say that I tried saying it like a million times Sounds like it's so hard to pronounce Was hailed as the first bestseller and she set the record for the highest paid novelist of the day Wow Okay So we've all heard of Shakespeare and Milton right so I'm my initial thought is like okay not only have we heard of Shakespeare and Milton but most of us like read something by them in high school right at least So I'm like where's an Ann Radcliffe at Yeah you know um that was kind of my first thought there you know and goes back to like our hot takes episode where I was like why are we not reading any quote unquote romance by women in school and lots of these early works had absolutely no spice in them at all like they're not the romance that we Yeah read today necessarily you know totally Um so I thought that was kind of interesting also So her book The Romance of the Forest it was published in 1791 is considered to be Radcliffe's first success though not as well known now as her two later novels Um it in its day it was regarded as her best work So it's set in France It follows the journey of young Analine who abandoned by her father is taken in by Lamont by the Lamont family As they flee Paris they find shelter in a ruined abbey described as being a foroding sight surrounded by a romantic gloom which instills in our heroine a kind of pleasing dread Adeline finding herself the object of the marquee de Montaltt's desire is continually held captive throughout the novel Initially within the marquee chateau and later in the abbey that once served as her home Interestingly at the marquees chateau Adeline is not detained with threats of violence but with enticements though she does eventually escape So it's got Gothic themes kind of almost like you know I haven't read it but it sounds like maybe some dark romance themes in there as well Um you know some of these books were bestsellers of the day and yet I would argue most of us have probably never heard of these books Yeah Which is interesting to me Very interesting Okay So that's in 1791 So then I just put Enter Jane Austin Yeah So now we're looking at works that you know we're kind of getting into the zone where like I feel like most of us have heard of these Maybe we didn't read them but we've heard of them right we've got Sense and Sensibility in 1811 Pride and Prejudice in 1813 Emma in 1815 And um I just kind of like looked up a few bullet points about Jane Austin's works Um and I'll you know we'll link the sources below but they were coming from like the Colombian College of Arts and Sciences Like so they seem pretty legit to me Um but I thought that these were the important takeaways from Jane Austin's work So we're looking at early 1800s Okay Austin's characters are known for their depth complexity and realism moving beyond stereotypical portrayals of women and exploring their inner lives and social interactions Yeah Um Austin's novels offer insightful commentary on the marriage market economic realities for women and the complexities of social mobility in 19th century England Mhm Austin's heroins who often defy social expectations and strive for independence have been interpreted as early feminist characters sparking discussions about gender equality and female agency So you know political Yeah Yeah They wouldn't be if we didn't have to make people and their everything about them political Yeah Great Yeah So this I found interesting too So Austin's style characterized by wit irony and a focus on everyday life So that was a big part of it too was like her focus on everyday life I think was like something that was really unique to the time Um because it wasn't like some grand adventure It was like we were getting to just read about women's lives and what was going on in their lives which I thought was cool But this particular article said that it paved the way for the movement of literary realism which later influenced writers like Toltoy George Elliot and Charles Dickens Again authors that I would argue you're at least reading maybe a little bit of you know excerpts from poetry from I can't remember one time in college or high school ever reading anything by Jane Austin Nope Nope Okay I would say I'd have to look into it but y'all let us know Were you assigned Pride and Prejudice as a read in your school i would love for that to be the case but we should look into that because yeah our school definitely not But no but maybe some did But maybe some did because it's so popular It'd be surprising if those were all found by you know on their own valition and search But you know I don't know But we definitely in doing this research I noticed a pattern forming Yeah for sure For sure Um okay So the next one that was like really big on the list uh were the Bronte sisters So most of us have heard of Jane Air by Charlotte Bronte Withering Heights by Emily Bronte We're looking at like mid 1800s so like 1847 is when both of those came out Yeah Um and I was looking at um some specific articles about those So Jane Air and Withering Heights achieved enduring influence during their exploration of complex characters challenging social conventions and innovative gothic themes particularly in their portrayal of women and relationships making them seinal works of the Victorian era era Jane Heir's character a governness is a strong independent woman who defines the typical constraints placed on women in Victorian society making her a trailblazer in feminist literature Yeah The novels critique class structures religious hypocrisy and expectations placed on women challenging readers to question the status quo And they explore dark themes such as violence obsession and social inequality Oh wow So again you know we're having these women authors not just telling stories about women's lives but also using this medium to critique whatever society you know they are most familiar with at the time Yeah So interesting Yeah seems pretty legit if you know they're literally comparing these authors to you know huge names that all of us know of Yeah definitely So okay So then we kind of have like this little bit of time in between because I feel like most of us have heard obviously of like these books that we're talking about now and then it kind of got like a little bit quieter at least what I could find online in my research and kind of like the early 1900s and like mid Yeah Um so in the early 1900s interest in romance I guess it grew with Geette hires romance the black moth and the publishing of Gone with the Wind in 1936 Okay Okay So what I found interesting about this is that you know I've never heard of The Black Moth at all Apparently romance was getting more popular but then you know it's being cited as Gone with the Wind 1936 being one of the most popular but it's technically not even a romance novel It's like um yeah but it does have a lot of themes I guess that like future romance novels would you know like um I don't know take from or whatever to like build their stories around Yeah Um but then you have authors like Victoria Hol and Daphne Du Marier Um who I don't know who the second one is but Victoria Hol I definitely know who she is That also became popular in the 30s through 50s pushing historical fiction romance and gothic romance more into the mainstream Yeah Well we have a better idea of what was going on in the early 1900s to 1950s with the Great Depression and the you know economic downfall crisis of United States and the world honestly and then also the 1950s being that housewife you know being the perfect little nuclear family So the opportunity for more female writers and romance might not have been there during that time period as easily Well they had to like literally be home holding down the fort too because of you know the war like so many backto-back world wars Yeah Yeah Um the 1950s and 1960s did see a shift towards narratives involving exotic locations and heroins who had careers outside of the expected roles of housewife or mother Yeah that's the first time they needed to have women in the workforce And you also have the beginnings of easier transportation around the world too Mhm Being able and then being able to see multiple cultures and things like that with the invention of aviation and a better rail system and all of that Yeah Yeah super interesting because I feel like it's like women throughout these hundreds of years have been using quote unquote romance novels to tell their stories to tell you know women's perspective to give critiques on the social structures at hand Um and I think you know I I mean I don't really even think I know that's got to be one of the reasons why society at large has tried to make them less legitimate in the literature world since the dawn of time Yeah Yeah Yeah Definitely So okay So I just made a note to myself So the big shift happened in 1972 Okay So here we are 1972 Kathleen E Woodawith I don't know how to say her last name Sorry if I'm butchering that Um wrote The Flame and the Flower which introduced a new sub uh subgenre The Bodis Ripper So to this point mass market romance novels featured very little sexually explicit material So Woodowiss's work changed that Bodis rippers were historical fiction novels that usually featured beautiful virginal yet fierce and independent women who would catch the attention of a handsome alpha male who would attempt to seduce and dominate her Bodis rippers were notorious for featuring rape and abuse as part of the love story and eventually were replaced by narratives that did not promote assault or violence Bodis rippers remain a relic of their time However the impact of these novels has been longlasting Ah I see So this is probably where what we knew of romance novels like coming off of Right Right Yes So it's like that was kind of like the Yeah the more modern area era like popular romance novel like Yeah scandalous paperback you know kind of situation And I mean really that's kind of interesting when you think about it that like it wasn't very common to have any quote unquote spice in a romance novel until the 70s Yeah that's wild to me So like all these books that existed before then it's like the romance was just that It was romance but no spice or close Well it's so sad that it didn't start as being something that would be mutually consensual It started as something really horrific because it was probably more realistic back then which is really depressing I would have to do I would have to do more research specifically on that subg genre the quote unquote bodice ripper to be able to really see you know how much of it was But I mean it specifically said a lot of them were virginal and young and there was a lot of non-consensual things happening So which also in its own way can be a huge commentary too Yeah definitely So you know important but also maybe not depicting our FMC's in a lot of the ways that we would appreciate now Yeah for sure Yeah Um so you know we got to give shoutouts to Jackie Collins Danielle Steel Nora Roberts like a lot of those kind of have paved the way with the you know kind of what we think of when we think of you know the quote unquote romance novels Mhm Um Harley Quinn a division of Harper Collins was the first publishing house to produce romance novels directly targeting female readers Over the years they became known for their distinctive eye-catching covers which usually featured lovers caught in elicit embraces or otherwise dreamy images Other publishers also began uh producing steam steamy cover art in an effort to boost sales which it did In the 1980s and 1990s Italian American model Fabio became a cover model for dozens of romance novels and changed the face of the genre forever Yeah Which I thought was funny cuz we all remember that Obviously we all remember him Yep Yep So this pretty much brings us back to modern day So here we are Yeah So where did So we've got romance novels as a whole Where did romanticy and dark romance come from because now we've got all these like subg genres We could be here for a thousand years talking about all that Um but I wanted to specifically talk about the subg genres that we usually feature here on the podcast So that's usually romanty or dark romance Um so I used an article the history of the wonderful romanty genre by Danielle Tomlinson She says "It's hard to pinpoint where the very first romanty book was published However 1987's War for the Oaks by Emma Bull can be remarked as the earliest publication from within this genre at least that she could find which I thought was kind of cool It made me want to like look it up." Um she said"It's about a rock and roll singer named Eddie Mckendry who somehow became drafted into a war between fairies and now her life is in danger." Sounds great Yeah Uh she I know She finds herself slowly falling in love with the same person who put her in danger Shocking Um so I thought that was pretty cool She says it's possible that the subjre has existed for far longer but the term didn't come about until 2008 and that's when the term was officially added to the urban dictionary Ah I was like hm 2008 That's kind of crazy That's not that long ago Yeah And not to mention you know there's a lot of uh people out there mostly men that are trying to discredit the romantic genre right um what the [ __ ] no but hello fairy tales that have been around again you know not to go back since the dawn of time but every like Cinderella story Cinderella I would dare to say is a dark romance romantic I mean a lot of That one's dark Yeah A lot of the original fairy tales they are So they're romanty You know you have the princess and the prince and the dragons and the prince saving the you know the lady from the dragon And then you have very very dark elements there So it's just it's just very interesting that more female writers are able to write now More female authors are present and they want to discredit it But it's like nobody's out here discrediting the um you know what's the Anderson guys what are their names one of the original writers Yeah Like um right here Hans Christian Anderson Yeah Hans Christian Nobody's discrediting him Hello That's brother The Brother's Grim The Brothers Grim Yeah What no Exactly It's like it's only not only but it's harped upon and it's only seems to be discredited as we've seen when it's written by a woman and women are the ones who predominantly enjoy it Mhm It's like a recipe for the mainstream to kick it down Yeah It's really interesting Um and we know the answer to all of the questions basically bo like we're not we know that all the answers to the questions basically boil down to misogyny and uh patriarchy We understand that We're not trying to not go down but to go down that road but it's like we just want to more so give you guys like the information and facts so that you can put two and two together and and read if you're going to read Fifty Shades of Gray with us or maybe if you are an ad put it into context and put a lot of the romantic and dark romance that we read into context Yeah for sure There's you know it's literature just as much as anything else And I feel like it's our own you know it's been stigmatized over several hundreds of years but probably probably since the first Egyptian lady did her hieroglyphic of like her first romance novel Yeah Freaking cave drawing Cave woman drawing Yeah exactly Oh well she wrote it so it's probably not as good as like freaking this guy's over here you know yeah The stick figure with the titties compared to this one you know oh well women did that drawing so terrible you know Probably did Probably So what about dark romance so this is a little bit harder to figure out because I feel like there's a lot more blurry lines with dark romance because it gets a lot of its origins from Gothic romance Yeah Um which has been around forever as we talked about before So it's kind of like not quite so decipherable like oh this is where the first dark romance came out Um so in a lot of the articles that I found authors that we have all heard of you know Colleen Hoover Anna Huang and Abby Jimenez are some of the bestsellers who brought darker and more traumatic narratives to the mainstream So you know we might have things that we consider a lot darker now but those are the authors that you know are often times credited with just bringing darker themes to the romance category in general Um so I found a really interesting article by Ned Arya called the evolution of dark romance a historical perspective Um and she says "There's an emergent popularity in the subg genre known as dark romance This niche often ventures into territories involving mafia narratives kidnapping plots exploration of non-consensual experiences and even delves into rape fantasies While treading closer to erotica at times these stories find a substantial following featuring heavily inromance ccentric discussions and platforms like book talk which we already talked about The appeal largely stems from the cathartic experiences these novels off offer echoing the storytelling traditions since the times of ancient Greece They promise intense emotional engagements intriguing plots and an exploration of sexual taboos So I thought that was a good definition kind of a good summation of you know how because of all of these authors who have given us you know the romance novel over the hundreds of years now we're able to delve into some of these more taboo topics Definitely And I think that there's a more with our generation and some of the newer younger generations we're more open than our predecessors as well to discuss things that whether like or dislike but just have more open and honest conversations I mean I didn't grow up with that you know but it's something that I think in my personal um take on dark romance having such a popularity at the moment and romance in general is it's kind of our maybe subconscious response to a lot of us who grew up with purity culture And reading it came at such a perfect time I think because being able to read stories for women by women especially like you've said before centering women's pleasure or their stories or whatever is something that we never had access to and given so much more access to it is so healthy and so validating ing and so good Yeah I mean I I agree with you that Yeah same You know I grew up in kind of the same type of environment Um basically an abstinence only culture Yeah totally Which is just you know again that could be a whole episode in and of itself that we can discuss But Yeah I feel like by doing that though you are essentially erasing a huge portion of women's experiences Yeah Um and then it turns into a situation like where we've talked about before when the only time we're seeing women experience romance or sexual situations is when it's against their will when it's pleasing a man when it's dusty old man uh writing about a 15year-old what is this dude don't I don't even want to give him a platform that guy writing the first novel like come on but I mean even like to modern day it's like because of the fact that it's like yeah this purity abstinence only culture that essentially is erasing a huge chunk of women's lived experiences by only letting us see our you know like I use that in air quotes our experiences through the eyes of men through the male gaze and that's obviously we know that's really problematic Yeah Because obviously you know that isn't validating that doesn't it reflect our experiences for most of us Um and I think that is another reason why dark romance tends to resonate so much with so many of us Um you know and that's a a discussion that I feel like a lot of us have had where you know like just to use this as a personal example because I can really only speak for myself I really enjoy reading stalker romances Some people might find that extremely problematic I have had a stalker really truly in life Um and for me it does it it is a very as you said cathartic experience It's validating It's um it it almost helps you process what happened to you by seeing I mean we know right by seeing something in popular media that's a reflecting what you're going through It validates that for you so you know that a you're not alone even if you're an adult and you completely understand that you're not alone It can still really help you process that And you know people are like wouldn't that retraumatize you it's like maybe for some people it could Mhm But for me it did the complete opposite Yeah Um and like I said it's one of those things It's like oh it's okay You're not alone Like those words itself they don't always help you know yeah Totally Being able to like read about it see it do research That is kind of what is the like substance that sometimes we need Yeah To help process Yeah Well yeah You want to see I mean this is why representation is so important We want to see ourselves represented in popular media in general you know and that doesn't just go for women Obviously that goes for everybody but you know it's like that is why I think dark romance resonates with so many people for sure So and it's also like you know going back to purity culture it's like a full 180 away from that you know Totally Which there's always kind of going to be that pendulum swing I think with things you know as a response of a um form of resistance Dark romance is a form of resistance in its own way in my opinion Yeah Against purity culture for sure Well and to go back to what you said before too you know it's like we do you know obviously there's a lot of spice in these novels now Back in the day there wasn't However back in the day they were living in a completely different society you know where they were probably writing with just as much resistance and just as much totally scandalous content Just to us today it wouldn't seem that way Yeah You know what I mean it's like you got to put it in the right context in the right place in time Totally Totally Yeah Totally So yeah Just to further make you guys mad cuz here we are Um so you know I feel like a common argument with why are things created for women or by women not as popular right is that well they probably just don't sell as well Yeah True Right Right They're probably just like Yeah They like that's why if they sold well obviously they'd make more of them right obviously they would be critically acclaimed Obviously we'd be teaching them in schools and they'd be considered literature Obviously right yeah you would think So uh we're just going to start this off with romance novels generate about $1.44 billion in revenue annually This is the current statistic making it the highest selling fiction genre nearly doubling the revenue of the next most successful genre Well well well well well This isn't the proof in the pudding So riddle be this Can Why can't we turn some of that $1.44 billion revenue a year a highest selling fiction genre what's going what like the math ain't math in there right like it's basically Yeah It's basically like numbers don't lie right right Yeah So if numbers don't lie then really the only explanation for this can be misogyny Right Right Because if if money is what matters the bottom line is what matters in this society that we have this capitalist society where money is what matters Shouldn't that be as simple as 1 + 1 equals 2 yeah Well because Liz what matters more than money the only thing is about control Oo interesting Yes indeed Yes indeed Yes indeed So we're just going to dive a little bit more into that So uh we're not going to go too far down that rabbit hole because we don't have all day Uh but here's just a few more little statistics So the romance genre in general is experiencing a notable surge in popularity dominating the book market with substantial growth in recent years In 2018 the genre garnered $1.3 billion in sales in the US alone accounting for a quarter of all book sales and half of mass market book sales This upward trajectory has continued with the genre witnessing a remarkable growth of 41% in 2021 and further escalation in 2022 marking the highest sale point since 2014 as per data from NPD bookcan Additionally the UK observer or observed a similar trend according to the highest sales since the release of none other than 50 Shades of Gray in 2012 with an estimated 14.3 million copies sold from January to August in the last year A significant increase over 11 million sold during the same period in 2020 So industry experts anticipate the trend to persist solidifying romance novels as a booming sector in the literary market Um so the reason why I threw that specific thing in there is because obviously we're leading up to reading Fifty Shades of Gray Mhm And in my research obviously it's way more complicated than this but I did notice the release of Fifty Shades of Gray happened right around the same time that e-readers were becoming popular and digital books M um and so both of those can and I'm sure if you delved into it you could probably find the exact numbers had a huge influence on romance genre popularity growing so fast Yeah Yeah because and I thought this was really interesting and I was going to say this um a little bit later but I think it's important to say now that Fifty Shades of Gray is the bestselling romance book of all time Wow Wow Yep Yeah So I triple checked that because I was like is this right um but it is And I have a chart that I'll bring up in a little bit so we can look at Um and we're just going off of sales right like that's the only thing that we can that can really dictate those numbers Um what the most uh like the top most popular romance novels of all time are as according to how many copies sold Um so we'll go over that in a little bit here but the numbers again don't lie Yeah So popular romance themes I just wanted to kind of like talk about the themes because you know as we move into Fifty Shades of Gray we want to kind of see you know what things stand out to us Um you guys all know we talk about them all the time Enemies to lovers fake dating forbidden love friends to lovers second chance force proximity love triangle opposites attract workplace billionaire marriage of convenience All these things we love right but they have much deeper meanings often times Um popular dark romance theme So morally gray characters intense emotions trauma and abuse forbidden love stalking mafia kidnapping age gap reverse harm Um so I just wanted to kind of throw those in there moving forward so that we can kind of identify which tropes maybe in 50 Shades we're pulling out of there Yeah So we've already talked a little bit about this but do we have anything to add as far as why do we think this genre has been so stigmatized and deemed lesser than or illegitimate over the centuries even though it transformed literature and sells tremendously well you think we've already answered that question i feel like we've already kind of gone over that Yeah Yep I know that's that's the only guess I have is misogyny andor control because the money doesn't lie Money is there So I can't think of any other reason why it is destigmatized deemed lesser than Yep makes sense to me because otherwise I mean if there was a book genre right that like any other book genre I feel like that sold this well it would just Yeah If you suddenly had a surge in just historical whatever just historical books Yeah Suddenly everybody wants to pick up a history book about the great famine the potato famine you know then there would be movies and TV shows and everything because people want to see it obviously obsession Well what we hear is crickets you know Yeah Yep Interesting Um so to tie it back to 50 Shades specifically since that's where we're going with this Mhm Was this book important and treated this way as part of a larger problem or is it truly problematic so these are the questions that I kind of thought were important to ask going into like keep them in the back of our brain Yeah Going into reading Fifty Shades of Gray It's the bestelling romance book of all time Yeah Yet it is highly disregarded as being important to the genre Uh-huh I feel like the popular discourse around it is that it's extremely problematic which it might be right like that's totally fine It can be both I think that's important too This could be a completely a gray situation if you will See what she what you did there Yeah Um but I feel like even as a romance reader I didn't even have necessarily any interest in reading this in particular until I thought like okay this would be a good way to like examine some of these themes through the podcast I don't know if we didn't have this podcast if I would have ever picked it up and read it I know I would have Yeah Yeah And not to say that you know it's like without any other judgments like because we all like books or dislikes books It could be good It could be bad It could be problematic It could be completely unproatic Why do we have those already pre you know like assumed notions about a book series that we've never read that literally is the best romance novel like that like it sold more copies than any other romance novel ever Like why well I know for me personally remembering back at that time it was uh heavily discredited in popular media and everyone around me It was everywhere I would see I mean I worked at a restaurant at the time and there'd be um I would say little ladies you know with their copy sitting there reading you know and so I just thought yeah like it's just the demographic may be coming from the Fabios and stuff So and then what I would see is SNL making fun of it and tons of everywhere every which way everybody's talking about it negatively So that was my experience and only my experience with that the book and then the movie you know so then as someone who was only in her early 20s at that time and very susceptible to influence on pe people around me and media Yeah I was like "Yeah what a joke." You know And I never looked further than that I never investigated further Yeah What about you i mean for me Yeah I mean the popular discourse I feel like around this book is that you know it didn't it just didn't really deserve the popularity that it got Um and again that's debatable because every book is someone you know you're going to have your personal opinion about it whether it was worth the hype or not you know but it's I feel like it was just so negatively talked about across the board And to me learning you know because we all knew it was successful right we all knew it was super popular Um and we all knew that you know obviously they made movies out of it and whatever Um but just to know that a woman wrote a book that then sold that well you know whether you like it or not it kind of seems like perhaps some credit should be given where credit is due for that You know what I mean Um instead of literally just continuously basically just calling it a piece of crap like there's no better way to say that calling it like you know what I mean whether you like it or not I feel like that was the common discourse that was going on at the time and I feel like you know whether it deserves it or not it's a level of success that a woman author had and a lot of women enjoyed that then was really looked down upon Yeah I think that's kind of part of a pro the larger problem you know and just coming from my experience as a just sitting back and watching everything as someone who only tried to watch Game of Thrones you know and tried to read the books and sorry they're very dusty Um I never heard any critique about it whatsoever but I hear about how problematic Fifty Shades is Yet when any part of an episode I try to walk in on my husband watching I'm just like what is happening right now on Game of Thrones and I don't hear about how it's problematic you know or anything like that So what's one's written by a man one's written by a woman Yeah And it's Yeah It's not the popular discourse It's like I feel like if something gains the popularity that's written by a woman for women primarily then and it reaches huge success Yep then we have to figure out there had to have been something or a million things wrong with it for it to not deserve the success Yeah I think that's it doesn't deserve to be Well it's super popular but it doesn't deserve it Yeah Really are you sure because there's a reason why it's the bestselling romance book of all time right Um and so yeah not that there's not critiques or whatever of Game of Thrones I'm sure there's plenty of them out there but it's not the common discourse I think that's Exactly Mhm That's what I'm trying to say Yeah Exactly Um yeah So and not that either warrant it but it's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head of like having both problematic things happening within each category but one gets you know all these deals in positive lights only where the other is deemed well didn't deserve that Yeah Um so you know these are all just ideas to keep in mind moving forward as we read the series for sure Um just other things I wanted to note about Fifty Shades Um it was originally written as a Twilight fanfic entitled Master of the Universe So that is in fact true That is how it started Um it's a little treat for Liz A little treat for me Yep Um because the sales were so crazy it did singlehandedly help to save publishing at the time Wow Which is crazy to me Mhm Um and it did pave the way for erotica and dark romance and romance in general to boom It came out around the same time as e-readers and the Hunger Games which I thought was really interesting Yeah Um so yeah and a lot of different articles that I found um you know yeah books were not doing well It was a dark time And then um yeah it was kind like a lot of the articles were focusing on how between e-readers coming out Fifty Shades coming out The Hunger Games coming out it was almost like it gave a little bit of boom and like a hope um to the publishing world Well because I feel like with e-readers because obviously all of us at that time coming from the mindset of romance novels being the Fabio and again not to say that that those books are actually bad but that's just what we were growing up being told that those are nonsensical not litworthy books And e-readers made it so that you could read in private in public right you didn't have to have an embarrassing I do air quotes cover You could have what's the word for it i mean discreet like a discreet cover Discreet a discreet cover because obviously it blew up so much that everybody knew what the cover was Before it was a pretty discreet cover though It's just a tie if it's shape But if you have an e-reader and you want to read this book that everybody's making fun of but maybe you're interested in it discreetly e-readers allowed for that to happen So it gave it's definitely a perfect time for this book to come onto market where people could read these things that unfortunately were told to call guilty pleasures Yep Even 100% though I mean that's a huge difference Um and I do want to note too that um I don't know how accurate this is but I suspect it's probably fairly accurate I can't remember which one of the articles said it but romance readers specifically contribute so much to the boom of um like publishing in general because we consume so many more books than the average person The average romance reader supposedly reads about a book a week Um which is which I mean to me would be accurate right i usually probably read about one to two books a week Um and so yeah most people do not read a book a week Yeah No So just to pull up this chart um because I thought that it was pretty interesting So this is units sold in millions of the top romance books So just to kind of put it into perspective uh 50 Shades of Gray is at 150 million units sold Um so the second one is Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austin 120 million units sold Uh number three is The Notebook by Nicholas Sparks which was funny because I was like that is written by a man and I've never read anything by Nicholas Sparks but we kind of for I forget about him sometimes It's just not something that we usually uh lean towards but he's got 105 million Um and then we have Gone with the Wind with 30 million So it goes way down So basically we have like the top three really popular The Notebook Pride and Prejudice Fifty Shades of Gray Um and then yeah Gone with the Wind and then it kind of goes down from there with Outlander um Love Story The Time Traveler's Wife Jane Air Romeo and Juliet and then Anna Corinina Um and so I thought that was really fascinating to see how you know as problematic as it may be and we'll talk about that in future episodes you know Fifty Shades of Gray really did a lot for the publishing world and also did a lot to bring romance specifically with darker themes into the mainstream So hey it is more highly sold That doesn't sound like proper grammar but whatever Out of all those books you just listed that's insane of all time That's crazy guys Let that settle in for a second Fifty Shades sold more in its lifetime than Pride and Prejudice which has been out longer you know Different vibes completely That's wild That's wild So yeah And this is just like a chart I'll go ahead and link it below Also like I said take it with a grain of salt as well because I did a fair amount of uh research but obviously not everything you find online I try to be as accurate and verify as many things as I can Um but we'll link all of the articles so that you guys can do further research if you want But the bottom line is that you know I went into doing this research fully expecting that you know yeah a book like Pride and Prejudice would be the number one bestselling romance novel of all time right i even though we're covering Fifty Shades of Gray I didn't expect it to be like to blow all these other ones out of the water I didn't think that's what was going to happen Um it just did So hey Okay so we've set the scene you guys have the info So here we are So okay let's talk about romance in our own lives Our personal our personal romance story No I'm just kidding Um so I thought this is kind of like a fun question to think about Like what's your first recollection of romance like that theme in popular culture yeah it would be like romcoms and stuff like that Princess Bride Mhm Yeah Princess Bride Um I thought about it and I was like it's Disney movies Oh yeah Duh It has to be See we keep forgetting about fairy tales that have been around forever because we're just so used to that as like a baseline anyways that we forget that that's romance that that's fantasy that's romanty all those things Literally Okay think about that Dark romance Beauty and the Beast Think about that Think about the fact that some of the most popular movies of all time okay Titanic sorry but I mean Disney movies like Yeah literally Beauty and the Beast The Little Mermaid Aladdin like all the classics right cinderella Snow White all the classics that we love Like why are we okay with that being legitimate yeah in popular media Like literally why is Disney so freaking rich and famous and Disneyland so rich and famous but then when female authors come out with romanty stories so dang similar or even retellings of those stories they're not seen as being legitimate to um you know creating this like fantasy cannon Like why is that that's crazy cuz I would argue that that was an introduction to romance for probably most of us Disney movies You're absolutely right So what are your favorite roown i know right mind blown Yeah So what were are your favorite romance shows and movies i mean you already kind of like talked about it a little bit Yeah I'm trying to think what else I could mention Uh head empty no thoughts So why don't you go spill um well why don't we just talk about them like why don't you give a shout out to any of like your favorite like any things that you thought of um or could think of from your younger years um that did introduce you to any type of romance that you liked whether it was like books movies shows or anything like that i know there's one in particular that stands out to me Yeah I mean Beauty and the Beast Little Mermaid Sleeping Beauty all those And then all the fun romcoms GH I loved You Got Mail I still watch it on a rainy day to this day So cute Yeah Yeah All those um Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks duos those movies just love them to death Mhm Nice See for me I when I was thinking of like what kind of introduced me to romance outside of Disney when I was younger I immediately thought of Ann of Green Gables because that was one of my favorite her and Gilbert Like that is top tier like romance And yeah I feel like if you know you know But that for me that was definitely like one of my first introductions to like just that idea of yeah like you know boy meets girl they're kind of enemies to lovers like it was just I mean I don't want to give anything away if you haven't read it but guys it came out a really long time ago Um but yeah I mean I just I loved Gilbert I thought he was the best And looking back on it I was like yeah because that I mean obviously it was about an but it was a love story too That's special Yeah I can't think of any books I don't think I read any books with romance in it I was really depressing child I guess I don't know I didn't allow myself probably to you know explore that side of me for sure Well as far as like kids go kids books go you know like Ann of Green Gables I mean it's as greed as it gets but Yeah But I didn't read that So I'm trying to think if there's anything else along those lines and I can't think of anything else Mhm I mean I even feel like once you get into the later like House on the Little House on the Prairie books there's some like love story romances in that too Again G-rated but still I read like once I got The Giver into my hands it was all dystopian from there You know you're like "Forget forget these happy stories Goodbye." And then otherwise it was like a signed reading and stuff Yeah Yeah Mhm And um yeah we've talked about in future episodes such as the satanic panic and stuff writing the revelations over and over again and left behind and really just spiraling into a deep dark depression for me So sorry guys the opposite of romance Yeah exactly This is why I I stand by my hot take You know we should be re we should be reading Pride and Prejudice in high school We should be reading something like that in high school Yeah I will say that forever Okay so there you guys go We've gone through time to try to figure out where Back to the Future Back to the future to figure out h like how did we Yeah How did we get here how did we get to Fifty Shades of Gray what does it mean and like I said we crammed a lot of information into just one episode so take with that what you will Um but we hope that you enjoyed it And I think we're ready to wrap this up with a little smasher pass Yeah let's do it Well I had more of like a choose your own adventure kind of smasher pass Yeah Um because since we were on this topic Yeah Ashley's like typical choices are usually not very like dark romancecoded when it comes to MMC's So my smasher pass was you have to pick an MMC Okay From either a dark romance or like a like a not necessarily a dark romance portrayed in media but like you know any of the like villains or anti-heroes that you would see in popular media So if you had to pick one of those guys who would it be i just pick any Yeah Really use my brain here Okay But he can't be like he can't be the good guy He can't be the hero He can't be You know what I mean like we're not looking for that We're looking for an MMC dark romance coded villain essentially Who would you pick like a Yeah a villain but it could be from anything Yeah Uh I'm going to go with Dr Facilia Princess and the Frog Boom There you go You heard it here first Done Yep There you go Okay Liz I'm going to do a F Mary kill of our favorite romance men in the classics that we know and love whether Disney romcom whatever So F Mary Kill Heath Ledger 10 Things I Hate About You Okay The Goblin King from Labyrinth Okay Okay And the Beast in Beast form In beast form Mhm Yeah No prince Ah Uh okay Well uh this is too hard Okay Okay Okay I really have to I'm like trying to think of I'm trying to think of the logistics because Okay All right We are going to marry the Goblin King Wow Because I want to be the Goblin Queen Okay So sue me Don't sue me Yeah Um and then I'm going to f Heath Ledger and I'm going to kill the beast Sorry beast I don't want to kill you but like it's logistically doesn't make sense right sure Okay Yeah You're thinking too hard It's not literal though so it's okay Um but yeah I think I I'm locking my answer in Okay lock it in And now we bring out from door number three the go[Applause][Laughter] What about you i need to know your answer now Okay I'd got to marry Heath from 10 Things I Hate About You H great Very practical Yeah Really you wouldn't want to go live in a fantastical land with the Goblin King ah you're right Okay Mary the Beast in beast form Ah curveball library castle He cannot change back into the prince though Sorry that didn't do it for any of us Yeah nice I just will never kiss him or anything cuz they're all he everybody turns back to people I like the the animate objects I'm so evil I'm the evil queen that won't let like I'm keeping everybody as inanimate objects cuz I like it better that way Great That's what I'm saying That's why I chose Goblin King I'm like I'll just marry him Yeah but I love those muppets just seem to annoy him a lot and if he's annoyed I'm annoyed So have fun with those So I'm going to go with Mary Beast and beast form Um then I can't kill Heath again That's so sad And we're talking like you know I can't kill him again So adult Heath really as the Joker would be fine as a substitute Um so f and then I'll have to kill the goblin king which is sad too cuz he's also dead But listen this is all made up Um but yeah I guess I'll have to do that So love it I got to go live in a castle too We go visit each other Let's go Sounds good Oh you heard it here first How exciting All right guys I think that probably cover it covers it It covers it as much as we can cover it Yeah Can't cover no more than we did We've already kept you here past 4 so we're going to get phone calls now You left me there too long But you guys we got a lot more to talk about in all of our Friday bonus episodes that are starting I think it's this week So set your alarms try notifications First mini episode will be out covering 50 shades of gray because it's going to be gray Fifty Shades of May guys It's so good So follow like subscribe everybody like listen your favorite podcast including YouTube and we'll see you on Friday Okay we'll see you on Friday All right Bye Bye[Music]