Ep 74 Coming of Age, Girlhood, & Green Gables: What is a Bildungsroman and Why Female Stories Matter

According to Miriam Webster, the Bildungsroman is a novel about the moral and psychological growth of a main character. Today, we’re kicking off our Anne of Green Gables bonus episode series with an introduction to the genre, a basic examination of life on Prince Edward Island, the 7th Canadian province where the Anne books primarily take place, and some context and backstory about L.M. Montgomery, the creator and author of this timeless series. 

If we think back to our high school days, it’s likely that most of us read popular titles like Catcher in the Rye, Invisible Man, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. But what about coming of age stories that center the experiences of women and girls? Popularized by titles like Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice, the Bildungsroman has also been used throughout history by female authors to challenge societal expectations of women’s roles and the politics that make them law. 

Coming of age stories about women and girls are oftentimes infantilized and deemed appropriate reading material for girls only. We argue they’re important and good for everyone, regardless of age and gender. The themes and journeys depicted reflect a very different perspective when boys and men are not the central protagonist, focusing more on romance, gender roles, and access to independence and mobility. 

Join us this Friday, and for the following five as we read and discuss all eight of the Anne of Green Gables books and the 1980’s movie adaptations within this feminist, coming of age context. We’ll cover everything from our least and most favorite characters and plot points, to how L.M. Montgomery uses the genre to examine political issues, women’s roles, and society at large. We’ll bring you fun facts, and even a bonus feature called “That’s JUST Like A Man!” 

These books surprised us in all the best ways and we cannot wait to share them with you! And today we even bring you a fave and fail with a childhood twist, and an old timey / animated smash or pass.

Don't be shy, subscribe! New Podcasts every Tuesday!! (And sometimes Friday!…)

Check out these author interviews? ⬇️

Penn Cole talks with us about Strong Female Characters, Feminist Themes, and her debut bestselling Spark of the Everflame Series! https://youtu.be/7ukNImyoObw?si=7C3Y9kOUMN4hfcKb

We interviewed Callie Hart all about her NYT Bestseller Quicksilver! Watch it here! https://youtu.be/CED5s7qDBdQ?si=8xtIRO1IzX6Rsld4

Check the official Author Interview with Lindsay Straube of Split or Swallow! Now a Barnes & Noble & Amazon best seller titled: Kiss of the Basilisk!  https://youtu.be/fknhocSNIKM

____

Shop bookish apparel worn in this episode!

Ashley is Wearing: Troop Beverly Hills sweater from Etsy | * https://go.magik.ly/ml/2g6nn/ 

Liz is Wearing:  Anne of Green Gables sweater from Amazon | * https://amzn.to/41JA1CB 

Any

YouTube | TikTok | Instagram | Podcast Platforms
@BestiesandtheBooksPodcast

Besties and the Book Club on Fable!
https://fable.co/bestiesandthebookclub-474863489358

Liz
Instagram | TikTok
@TheRealLifeVeganWife

Ashley
Instagram | TikTok
@AshleyEllix

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Besties and the Books
• 10:00 Favs and Fails Childhood VS Adulthood Edition
• 17:54 What is a bildungsroman?
• 24:50 When and why did Coming of Age Stories Become Popular?
• 36:50 Backstory and History of Anne of Green Gables
• 58:20 Unhinged Smash or Pass

Transcript

0:00

God forbid you learn empathy at a young age. Oh my gosh. Master master worldbuilder. Yeah. Oh yeah. What about doing dishes in a bucket is relaxing? If Luther from Spark of the Everflame was a dog Yeah. he'd look like this. Yes. And Shirley walked so that Katniss could run.[Music] Welcome to the Besties in the Books podcast. I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And today we are kicking off our next big mini episode. Big mini mini big small episode series covering all of the Ann of Green Gables books. Um today will be a spoiler-free episode because we will actually just be delving into our introduction to coming of age stories. Um specifically focusing on female coming of age stories. um or the buildings Roman I think is how you say it. Uh if I remember correctly from English class if that takes any of you guys back. Took me back. It took me way back. It took me way back as well to a very specific teacher. Indeed. Actually, you know, when I was researching this episode, I realized that we actually read a very wide range of coming of age tales from a lot of different people, a very diverse group of authors. And I was really proud of our teachers in high school. I was like for like our po little town that we grew up in. That's very impressive. It was really impressive. I was like,"Whoa, that's really cool." Um, so for anyone who might not know, so a buildings Roman or a coming of age tale, this is um basically by definition a novel or literary genre dealing with one person's formative years or spiritual education and that focuses on the psychological and moral growth of a protagonist from youth to adulthood. So, I thought this was interesting. I didn't know this at all. The term itself is German, so it combines building, which means education or formation, and Roman, which means novel. So, like literally, which is funny because I'm like, it seems like that would have been something useful to learn in high school because otherwise it's like, why do they call it this like silly name? And it's like uh cuz it makes logical sense. Yeah. Yeah. Um so, we'll be discussing what these novels are typically about. So, we will be talking about um all of the Ann of Green Gables books moving forward, but this episode is just to kind of set the scene. Um so, we'll be talking about why they're popular, you know, what the wellknown titles in this genre are. Um that most of us probably read some of them in high school or familiar with them now, when they became popular specifically. Um just to kind of give some, you know, history and kind of set the scene for us. And if coming of age stories about girls and women in the early 1900s when Ann of Green Gables came out were actually uh very popular or common um and kind of just like what that meant for the genre in general and what that kind of reflected about society. Um and you know are they still popular now? Is it common to have these types of books coming out now specifically with female protagonists? I mean, that's really important to talk about in regards to what we normally cover. Totally. Um, and if it's influential on other genres, which obviously you guys can probably assume. We can probably assume that it is. Yeah. And hey, if you're joining us like later on in our podcasting journey, we're going to be putting, you know, a reminder if we're starting another coming of age story series in the future. You know, you can refer back to this one if you need a refresher on like, you know, any of this story cuz we did vampires. We're going to do another vampire series, you know, eventually. So, you can refer back to our vampires, not coming of age, specifically coming of age about vampires. Liz is our research girl and she, you know, our journalist major and she has like done all the research, you know, to be able to fit into an hour episode of, you know, kind of giving you some historical uh like context context of novels and media and all of these things that we discuss for each theme that we do. So, we won't always have a kickoff episode because sometimes we'll already have covered it. But, so, hey, if you're in the future, what's up? How's it going out there? Welcome. If you're in the Is it better? last heard in the now. Hang on there, kitten. Friday's coming, but about this miniseries specifically. So, Ann of Green Gables, man. What a time. Eight books in this wonderful series. Liz and I kind of were going back and forth on whether or not we should read all of them. And I'm so glad we decided that we are going to. Yeah. Cuz I think it's You said the original three are like the most popular. Yes. Yes, for sure. Those are the ones that I originally read when I was a kid. I hadn't read beyond three. So, yeah. So, we kind of were like, "Hey, well, I mean, this is kind of what we do here. We should probably find that out for you guys if it's worth reading." Yeah. So, um, we're going to be covering them all, but a slightly different style than what we normally do. We we would usually do one mini episode, which isn't always many, but you know, one one dedicated episode per book, but because there's eight books and so little time in the world, we decided to combine two books per episode with slightly different structures. still doing our favorites, least favorites, and all of that. But that's what we'll be doing starting this Friday. So, set your little notification bells on YouTube or podcasting platforms, whatever. That way you get notified because this Friday will be our first episode covering an of Green Gables, of course, with Ann of Aly. Did I say it right? Okay. Sometimes I read it and then I find out I've been saying it wrong the whole time in my head. Okay, so totaling four books for the deep dive episodes, eight books, two books per episode, and then ending with the wrap-up episode, of course, comparing the movies to the books, how did they do, ranking them, talking about the series as a whole, and it's specifically the 1980s movie adaptation. Yeah, cuz there's a lot there's a lot of interpretations. There's obviously the show that came out, like there's a lot of things, but we will be talking about Yeah. the original um three movies um that came out in like I want to say the mid to late 80s. Yeah. Yeah. Um cuz they're my favorite the favorite the classics like of our our generation and surrounding generations. Yeah, for sure. I have heard that um the it's not new now, but the newer show that came out and with an E, I think is what it's called. I have heard that that is really good. So, I should watch it at some point. But yeah, we're going to be um it's my I mean I've seen these movies a zillion times, but it'll be Ashley's first time watching them. First time reading, first time watching. I I will say my you know, my older sister was pretty obsessed with the movies, but I think I was just too young to like I just knew she had red hair. That's like that's the amount of context I had going into this series. So very excited. Yeah, me too. I cannot wait. Um, so the other part of this episode, so we're going to be obviously talking about the coming of age tale and as that pertains to female protagonists. Um, but then we're also going to be setting a little bit of context. Um, because I feel like unfortunately if you're anything like me or most of us, I feel like from the US, you probably don't know a whole lot about Canadian history. Yeah. Um, and so I'll just be giving a little a little bit of what is going on kind of politically at the time um, in Canada where Anna Green Gables predominantly takes place in Prince Edward Island. um that way you guys can kind of know like what you know 1908 when the first book came out like what was going on and how did that perhaps influence you know LM Montgomery um Lucy Mod Montgomery when writing these books because I feel like that's important to understand. Um, and we'll also be talking a little bit, just giving you some context about the author, Ella Montgomery herself and you know what she was going through a little bit about her life because I feel like it's important to know that too when reading these books because I think that it makes them not make more sense but gives like a certain amount of depth to the story that maybe we wouldn't have if we just took it as um, you know, surface level fiction. Yeah. um without kind of putting it in that context. So, that's what we're going to be going over today. Um we're going to be setting the scene. Um and but before we get into all that, we just wanted to say thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys so much for being here on what is our I can't I'm losing track. How many miniseries do we have now? This might be number five. It's four or five. Okay. Well, let's see cuz now I'm curious. Okay. Harry Potter Harry Potter. Twilight. Twilight. Hunger Games. Hunger Games. Fifty Shades of Gray. Shades of Gray. And now Yeah. And now here we are with Ann of Green Gables. Yes. Wow. Well, thank you guys. Thank you guys for joining along with us. If you haven't yet, please like, follow, and subscribe anywhere you like to listen to your favorite podcast, including YouTube. We're hanging out over there in Liz's beautiful bookroom. Holy moly, it's I knew it was big, but did you know it was this big? That's what she said. This is glorious. Wow. Very beautiful. So, I'm vibing. I'm having a great time for sure. You guys come hang out with us. have a great time, too. And also follow us on Instagram, Tik Tok, we're at Bessies and the Books podcast everywhere. If you want to join us in these little buddy reads, our monthly virtual book club or over on Fable at Bessies and the Book Club. So, check us out on that app. Yep. We've got Savannah Green Gable's books on there if you guys feel like you need to, you know, read along and then spill your thoughts. Mhm. They're out there. They're out there. They're out there spilled for you for everyone else to either look or to comment back. Yep. Um, okay. So, let's just kick this episode off. I thought this was kind of funny when I was thinking of like what our fave and fail should be. Um, just because, you know, obviously we're talking about coming of age. What was something that you hated as a kid and liked and now like as an adult and then something that you hate as an adult but liked as a kid? Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, these are just silly things cuz obviously like I was just thinking of the first thing that kind of came to mind off the top of my head. Yeah. Okay. So, things I hated as a kid, but like as an adult, when I was a kid, I hated almost all kid foods. That's hilarious. Yeah. So, like I think that it kind of perplexed my mom a little bit. Like I'm talking hot dogs, hated them. Chicken nuggets, hated them. Mac and cheese, hated it. Like you name it. Oreos, hated them. Like any kid like typical quote unquote foods. You know, my husband's like, "Oh my god, when I was a kid, I like lived off mac and cheese." Absolutely not. No way. Um, and now that I'm an adult and I'm vegan, I love all those things, but like the vegan version. Yeah. So, I don't know if it was just like little me knew that I had an aversion to like dairy and meat and so it freaked me out. I honestly don't know because now like a vegan chicken nugget like delicious Oreos all day long. Those were always vegan. I don't know why I hated those when I was a kid. They're delicious. Also, PSA cuz I told Ashley about this earlier. Uh Oreo just came out with a chocolatecovered pretzel flavor and it is now my number one flavor. Yeah, we got to get some one go get them. So that was definitely something I hated as a kid that I now love as an adult. Um I guess thanks mom for not letting me eat a bunch of junk food, but still it would have made her life a little easier. I think sometimes things I hated as an adult, but like as a kid. Okay, I just put being outside. Yeah. I just I loved, you know, it's like we grew up in the country, so it was constantly like a you and your sister just go outside and play and we would build forts and I would explore and I had a reading nook that I like was on this big rock like under a tree that I would go sit out all very Ana Green Gables coded. Okay. Now I'm like absolutely not. Like I just want to be in my house. Like I I like have a reading area that you know looks outside to the trees and that is good for me. Yeah. Or like my idea, you know, my husband loves camping. I'm like I'd rather just like get a cabin. Yeah. And then it's like outdoorsy vibes, but I don't actually have to be in the outdoors part though, you know? But as a kid, I loved it. So I don't know. Yeah. What about you? What do you have? Oddly enough, were semiopposite. So food I put down things I loved as a kid but hate as an adult. Like the very nostalgic, heavily advertised '9s kid snacks. Oh, think Gushers, Squeeze It. Uh, what else did I put down? You loved all that stuff as a kid. I loved all that stuff as a kid. We were very limited on what we could get because, you know, those were rich people foods. Um but like that heavily advertised so you would covet it and then when you get it be like oh this is great sometimes. Sometimes it wouldn't be good but I loved those things. I also have on here um Yoohoo like I hated Yoohoo. That's another thing as a kid I hated guys. What was going on with me as a child? Well I loved it all and then I didn't have it obviously forever. A lot of them they discontinued but like then as adult I hate sweets. like I don't like junk food. And um so when I like I don't know my husband got my daughter a yoohoo one time and I'm like this is disgusting and I look at the ingredients it's like a chemical chemical factory full of like caramel number six and I don't even know. So don't do that. And then yeah I mean gushers I swear I think we all can agree gushers are not the same as they used to be. I don't know. Oh, I think I can. They took it out of the cardboard foil wrappers. Now I think it's just plastic and they just all stick together and they don't taste good. There is. And now I can't find um I'm allergic to apples and pears. So natural fruit snacks. I mean, everybody kind of went natural, so I can't have fruit snacks anymore, which is kind of a bummer. It's great, but it's a bummer for me. But there are Welches. They're like gushers, but they're not as intense and they're not sweet. They're so good, but they're so hard to find now. It's like Splashers or something like that. Splashers. I wonder if I could have them if they're gelatin free or not. I don't know if they're gelatin free, but they don't have apple and pear in it. They have a different fruit. So, I can have one flavor of those. There's one there's like four different flavors. So, if you're in the mood and you want some of the more If you can find them, they're really good. Um, but yeah, the classic candy stuff, disgusting. Hate it, but I loved it. Growing up, I never had a sweet tooth, per se. Like, my candy would always go bad for Christmas and everything, but like that nostalgic, you know, '9s snacks Yeah. were great. Um, also bonus, I loved Ren and Stimpy as a kid and when I watched it one time as an adult, I'm like, "What the hell is this?" Yeah. I feel like a lot of the kids shows I almost put that because I remember like some of the kids shows that I've tried to watch as an adult, I feel like uh like Dawson's Creek, that's not really a kid show, but like a tween show. That was so painstakingly boring. I was like, "This is weird." Um, there was another show that I watched. You either love like CW, whatever CW was before. It was called Something Before. You either loved those kind of shows or you didn't. And I was in the They were too boring for me. Yeah. I mean, but I don't know. I loved I wasn't allowed to watch Ren and Stimpy, but I did love Rocco's Modern Life. I did love that. It is slow though. I've tried watching adult. It's really slow, which is funny cuz I just like kids shows now are so fastpaced. So, there's something to that. But there are some kids shows that it's nice cuz it's slow. But it's funny. Yeah. It's just that's where all of our humor comes from is those weird kid shows back then. Um, and then something that I didn't like as a kid, but I love as an adult is probably being bored. I haven't been bored in like how old is my daughter? Um, you know, I don't I mean I wouldn't say I hate it as a kid, but it just happened all the time. You're just bored all the time, you know, especially in the mountains. You know, we didn't have anything to do. We have iPads. Like you're just bored going to my grandparents all day doing nothing. I would love to spend a day doing nothing, you know. So now, well, because now we would just read all day and it would be a delight. Yeah. Talking about camping, I just came back from a camping trip. Um, I love camping, but I I would say I loved it more as a kid than I do as an adult because now I have to do all the work. It was a lot better camping when you didn't have to do anything. You just were there playing with sticks. So, I think that's a big difference is like now when you go outdoors, it's on you, you know? Well, it's like I told Ashley, I was like Yeah. It's like I my issue with camping is that everyone's like,"Oh, it's go be in nature and it's so relaxing." And it's like I told Ashley last night, "Okay, what about doing dishes in a bucket is relaxing?" Like literally nothing. When I could do dishes with plumbing at my house in the sink. Yeah. I don't know. I struggle with that, guys. I struggle. You have to bring so much stuff. Of course you don't, but you do like to be comfortable. Like we're we're creatures of comfort now. What can we do? Yeah. So, yeah. When my one of the recent trips that we took where our car was packed to the gills, my husband's like,"Oh, why do we have so much stuff?" And I'm like, "Well, that's your special pillow you like to sleep with. That's your extra whatever." It's like, "We like these comforts, so we don't have to bring it, but in order to be comfort, well, you do." And there you go. Causes so much work. So, anyways. Yeah. It's a lot of guys, let us know in the comments what was something that you loved as a kid and don't like as an adult and vice versa. We would love to hear it. We'll definitely put a poll up on our Instagram, too, in case you can't comment wherever you're listening, but you can comment on Spotify and YouTube, which is super exciting. So, come hang out with us. All right, so should we just get into what in the world is a buildings Roman I guess I keep on I keep on wanting to call it a buildings Roman novel, but by definition that would be redundant, right? But it just it sounds better. I don't know to me. Anyway, so the origin of like where did it come from? Like what was the origin of this coming of age story? So the actual term buildings Roman was coined in 1819 by a philologist which um I looked that up and I think that's a studier of languages I'm pretty sure. Yeah, cuz I didn't know what that meant just in case anyone else doesn't know what that meant. um Johan Carl Simon Morgan Stern and his university lectures and was later legitimized and popularized in 1905 by Wilhelm Dily. Sorry, I'm probably going to really mess up some of these names. It is what it is. Uh the birth of the buildings Roman is normally dated to the publication of Wilhelm Meister's apprenticeship by Johan Wolf Gang von Goth in 1795 to 1796. However, some also believe that the Iliad might actually be the first example of a buildings Roman which was written by Homer in the 8th century BC. So, that's kind of one of those things depending on who you're talking to. You know, it's debatable. I'm not saying I have an opinion on this, but it's I guess you're either in one camp or the other where you think the Iliad is considered a coming of age tale and some people think that it's not. Yeah. So, who knows? It might have been around for longer than, you know, uh the mid 19th century. Yeah. So, what characteristics define a building's Roman? So, um these are the things that we're going to be looking for when we're moving forward and talking about Ann of Green Gables. Um so, it's a growing up or coming of age of a generally naive person who goes in search of answers to life's questions with the expectation that these will result in gaining experience of the world. So, it seems like a really like wide definition. Um, but that's kind of what when I was doing this research, that's kind of what I like about it because then it leaves a lot of room for it to be able to tell so many different kinds of stories. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. So, the genre evolved from folklore tales of a dunce or youngest child going out into the world to seek their fortune. Usually, in the beginning of the story, there is an emotional loss which makes the protagonist leave on their journey. U so it's kind of like an origin story a little bit too. Um in a buildings roman the goal is maturity and the protagonist achieves it gradually and with difficulty. The genre oftentimes features a main conflict between the main character and society and typically the values of society are gradually accepted by the protagonist and they are ultimately accepted into the society. So the uh protagonist mistakes and disappointments are over. Um, in some works the protagonist is able to reach out and help others after they achieve their maturity. So, it's kind of like we're just watching them grow up. Yeah. And kind of have I think what makes it unique is we're watching them grapple with the implications of their actions on the outside world because they're becoming less self-involved, I think, is a big part of it. Right. Cuz when you're young, it's like everything revolves around you. Yeah. And you're the center of the world and that's your whole world. It's very small. Yeah. And so we're watching them kind of like break out of that. Yeah. Um so let's see here. Um there are many variations and subg genres of buildings Roman that focus on the growth of an individual. Um so I'm not even going to try to pronounce these. Well, uh no. Well, I'm not going to even try to pronounce these. Well, an antic lungs Roman. um is a quote unquote developmental or development novel. Um so a story of general growth rather than self-ultivation. Um an ery hungs Roman. Mhm. Yeah. An education novel focuses on training and formal schooling. While a coonal Roman an artist novel is about the development of an artist and shows a growth of the self. So furthermore, again this is debatable in the community. Some memoirs and published journals can be regarded as buildings Roman, although claiming to be predominantly factual. Um, so yeah, that would be like memoir, autobiography, things like that. Um, and we'll have all of the sources that I used for all of this, just so you guys know, linked um, in the show notes. Um, a lot of just the basic definitions, like what I'm going over right now, I just got off of Wikipedia. But once we start getting into like actually kind of some more technical information um that comes from different websites and journals. So I will make sure to let you guys know. Yeah. If you want to do further research or um make sure everything I'm saying is accurate, which probably isn't. No, it is. I do the best I can. I do the best I can, but I'm not an expert. We only have an hour. So hey, um so just on the spot because I'm kind of curious. Yeah. So when you think without looking at my list, don't you? Um, when you think of, you know, coming of age novels or, you know, what we would have learned in high school as a buildings Roman, quote unquote, what kind of comes to mind? Does any book in particular come to mind for you? Uh, suddenly I forgot all the books that exist in the world. This is what happens when you put me on the spot. Anybody else? Uh, dude, so many though. So many. I was just curious if any So many but yet none at the same time. They're there. I just can't reach them. There's just out of my reach. Well, okay. So, I wrote down kind of like the most popular. That way, you guys, not that, you know, obviously this is this list is in no particular order at all. I just kind of pulled some that you guys have probably heard of. That way, it can kind of conceptualize the storytelling style for you guys. Um, so, The Catcher in the Ry by JD Salinger is probably one of the most well-known. Yeah. Shockingly, we did not read that in high school. There's so many of these that I didn't read. Yeah. most of them, in fact. Um, Jane Air by Charlotte Bronte, Great Expectations by Charles Dickens, Tequila Mockingbird by Harper Lee. We definitely read that one. Um, Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain. Yeah, I don't I don't read I didn't read that all the way, but yeah, I read it, but on my own behalf, cuz it wasn't um assigned in school. Yeah. For us anyway. Uh, Little Women by Louisa May Alcott, The Outsiders by SE Hinton, Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zoran Neil Hursten. I remember we definitely read that one. And I have I I know we did because of Liz, but don't remember it. I love that book. It's so good. Read it. Um, Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison, The Bellagar by Sylvia Pla, and on many of the lists that I found, uh, and of Green Gables. Yes. By LM Montgomery, just to tie it back in to the point of this whole episode. Yeah. Um so yeah the you know you guys your readers may have I know you've heard of many of those but you may have even read a couple of them. Yeah. So when did this genre start getting popular? Um so according to most of the things that I read in the midentth century particularly with YA fiction this is important to note for later. Okay. Yeah. um and with authors in the 1960s focusing on realistic portrayals of teenage experiences and social issues. Yeah. So in a lot of the articles that I was reading um this one in particular I'll just site from the Smithsonian magazine. The Outsiders is oftentimes credited with creating this shift. Yeah. Um so I thought that was kind of interesting. I've actually never read The Outsiders yet. Yeah, me neither. Um great things. Me too. Like it definitely should probably be on our list. Um but yeah, it is definitely credited with kind of that shift um into a genre that younger people could relate to. Yeah. Um and that's kind of when YA started exploding. Yeah. So again, just tuck that in your back pocket for a little bit down the line here. Yeah. Okay. So then I thought, all right, interesting. So when did the first one about a girl come out? Mhm. Um cuz I was like, you know, uh the male experience isn't always the same, right? The female experience, right? Um, and according to a lot of different articles, uh, Jane Air by Charlotte Bronte in 1847, which we talked about fairly extensively, um, in our romance episode. Yeah. Leading up to Fifty Shades of Gray, um, is considered by most to be the first widely known female buildings Roman. um or frain Roman, which is probably a term that you haven't heard of and I had not heard of because it's specifically about a female protagonist. Yes. Um so just some things to note about what's a little bit different uh supposedly about female uh coming of age novels. There is an intimate first-person narrative, uh, psychological struggles and emotional growth as she navigates societal expectations and personal challenges. Um, oftentimes they include themes of social criticism like class, sexuality, religion, and feminism and challenging gender roles as she strives for independence and self-determination. So, it's a different It's different. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. Yeah. But there are differences that I think are important to note. if for no other reason than the fact that many if not all of them are written by female authors who are bringing their experiences to the table because they can't pull themselves completely out of the novel, you know what I mean? So, I think that's important to know, too. Um, just to tie it back into kind of contemporary times, just to put it into some perspective, other well-known contemporary coming of age stories about females, Twilight by Stephanie Meyer. Um, are you there God? It's Me Margaret by Judy Bloom and The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins. I thought that it was kind of interesting that we have actually done min series on two of those. Yeah. I wonder why. Maybe because they're a little bit more relatable to us. Yeah. Also, I find I thought of something. what um technically all the um like Dear America books and stuff, you know, even though they're they're like loosely based off of, you know, real people, but they're usually coming of age times and we're reading them when we were coming of age. So those were those were all the books that I was reading on my own outside of assigned reading. Yeah. During that time that I was coming of age. So there you go, guys. Yeah, totally. I mean, it makes sense for sure. Yeah. So something important to note is that female and male buildings Roman novels are very similar in structure and theme. However, the themes present in stories written by women about women and girls are oftentimes heavily influenced by the range of topics and experiences women were and were not allowed to have at the time that they were written. So there's just a different level of context there. So themes like sexuality and higher education, for example, become more or less prominent depending on access, the time period, the country, and women's roles in it. Romance is almost always included. However, while works of previous centuries centered on marriage as the conclusion, many contemporary works still incorporate romantic relationships as a key component while also including other topics or conclusions. Yeah. So, you know, we can't, you know, we can't look at a work completely independent from the time period and experience as the author from whence it came, right? It's like that is important. Yeah, for sure. Um, and so those last little bits of info are from the buildings Roman Project um by Laura Presman, that article. Um, so what are the big milestones in a female coming of age story? When I was doing the research on that on this, I thought it was really interesting because another topic that I think that we should cover at some point is how the heroine's journey differs from the hero's journey. Yeah. Um I've actually done a lot of research about that topic within itself. And so this was kind of similar to that. Um so for generations, women were confined to the domestic sphere as society considered life outside the home as corrupting and unsuitable to women's sensitive disposition. As feminist criticism came into its own in the mid- 20th century, buildings Roman quote proved most useful in analyzing the ways in which 19th and early 20th century women novelists had represented the suppression and defeat of female autonomy, creativity, and maturity by patriarchal gender norms. Um, so this is from literary literary salon.ca. Um, I thought that summed it up pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so a fil a female buildings Roman gave women the ability to find their own voices in stories among the pages of novels which aimed to define the female experience and find commonalities of identity. The female buildings Roman are stories about the female experience specifically that create a community of female writers, readers, and critics. So, you know, this ties into what we talked about a lot in our um romance book episode. Yeah. where, you know, we talk a lot about how many of these works are reduced or infantilized, but they were used by women of the time to critique society, to critique politics. Um, you know, it was but they just they weren't held up as classic literature in a lot of cases. Yeah. Yeah. And this will tie back around to Ann of Green Gables. We'll get there. Yeah, it all kind of comes together. Um, so themes specific to female coming of age novels may include focus on emotions, explorations of gender roles, role of education and career aspirations, the impact of societal norms on personal choices, struggles for independence and equality, the intersection with feminist themes challenging traditional gender roles and advocating for women's rights and autonomy. personal ra relationships which help to shape the protagonist identity. Okay, so I just put this question in here. I titled it critical question to ask but it's just me asking it to us. Okay. Um so female coming of age stories blew up when YA fiction exploded. Why are boy men's stories so boy/men's stories popular regardless and for everyone but girls and women's stories are for a younger oftentimes female only audience. Yeah. Well um the first part of the question would be originally accessibility right men have always been given a platform to speak. Women had to fight for that platform. So that's to start. So is war widely dispersed. Um, and then obviously extreme misogyny and gender roles is what's caused men's stories to be for everyone, but girls stories to just be for girls and women. Mhm. Yeah. And I think the coming of age is a little even a little bit different because we see that even now today. It's very genre. Yeah. It's very common not just for romance but for just across the board, right? Yeah. Yeah. Movies. Yeah. If it's about a woman's life or a girl's life Yeah. Why would a guy go see that movie? If it's about a girl who's growing up and her experiences, right? Yeah. But if it's a boy and his experiences, then everyone should go see that movie, right? It's just a popular movie. Um, so we see that across the board. I think what makes it so important to note this um with coming of age stories specifically is because they're not just for quote unquote girls if it's about a girl, but they're for young girls. Yeah. They're specifically This is Anna Green Gables is for children. Yeah. You know, it's for female children. It's taking a this whole audience, right, of like all the people in the world and it's reducing it down to a very specific group. Not even is it just for women, it's just for young women because there's nothing in it, and I'm saying this facitiously, obviously, there's nothing in it that would be beneficial to any other group. Yeah. Well, and I got to say, I'm a victim of thinking this. Mhm. I think we all are because we grow up with that so deeply ingrained. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, "Oh, that's cute." I didn't I didn't think Anna Green Gables was this deep, guys. But it's and it's just it's just a good series in general. I had no idea. I just thought, "Oh, it's a cute little children's like I'm like, how are we going to do so many episodes on it?" Like, you know? Mhm. Oh, wow. This is how this is like Hunger Games all over for me all over again. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, but the same thing, just to tie it back around, the same thing happened with Hunger Games for a lot of people. Yep. Because the protagonist is a young girl. So, of course, it's all about the love triangle. It's all about the love triangle. It's all about why would we care about this teen girl's life, the silly, you know, it's reduced to silliness. I will say Twilight really was what it was, though. Twilight was what it was. So, that's the massage. And that's okay. Yeah. Exactly. And that's okay. But that's the thing. But that's okay cuz that's what it luckily it is what it is, you know. But that's the thing is we should have the freedom Yes. to cover the most serious like let's say Hunger Games to the least serious like Twilight and everything in between and still be taken seriously. Still be taken seriously. But also it's it's sad that this disservice is happening among all media and people that that you know Hunger Games is reduced to a love triangle and Anna Green Gables is reduced to like a cute little silly you know fun young women's young late girls really um novel or movie or whatever because it actually has so much more context in it and people aren't doing that to these other books that you mentioned that are male male or boy protagonist, catcher in the rye, um, Huckleberry Finn, you know. Yep. So, yeah, it's rude. It is rude. It's rude. It's rude. I have to talk to some people about that. Yeah. Um, okay. So, now that we've covered that, um, I thought it would be important to give a little just a very brief, okay, history of Canadian politics at the time of I'm excited cuz I didn't even know Prince Island was real and my daughter's reading it with me and she asked me that too and I was like, I don't know. I've always, ever since I was a little girl and I first read this, I've always dreamed of going there. Now I do, too. It is very real and you can actually go to They have a whole museum. They have a Green Gables thing, like farm, I guess, that you can go visit. Yeah. I mean, obviously now it's touristy and stuff, but like I want to go there. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Let's go. So, okay. So, Prince Edward Island, where Anna Green Gables mostly takes place, was inhabited by the Mcmac, sorry if I'm mis pronouncing that, people for thousands of years. These are the indigenous folks. Um, before being initially claimed by France in the 16th century. Mhm. Okay. Then later being occupied by the British after they gained control of the island in the Seven Years War. Mhm. In 1873, it officially joined the Canadian Confederation as its seventh province. Um the island's economy has historically revolved around agriculture. Yes. So, um, you know, we'll find out here in a little bit, but Ella Montgomery did grow up on Prince Edward Island. And so, she's writing these extremely vivid, beautiful places from her own experience like, and this not even like hang on, take a pause in Coming of Age. Master master worldbuilder. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. You feel like you're there. Like, I don't hear anybody talk about that. Yeah, I mean I'm not listening to a lot of angry gable stuff, but like you know who do we think of when we think of master worldbuilders? Master Lego. Um Tolken Tolken. Yeah, that's who comes to mind when I like initially think of like who creates it. I think it's because also it's not fantasy. Right. Right. And so I think when we think of world building lots of times we think of, you know, fantasy. We think of George R. Martin R. Martin. Right. Like we think of those people who create these insanely intricate fantasy worlds, but to be able to describe the real world. Yeah. In a way that makes it feel like a fantasy world. Yes. I think is what sets uh Ella Montgomery apart in a lot of ways. Or even just place you in there, you know, and find such beauty and uniqueness in ordinary things, right? Well, I mean, think about it. If you know, let's say 10-year-old me, I was just as interested in visiting Middle Earth as I was interested in visiting Prince Edward Island, which is just a province in Canada. Okay. Like it's real. Yeah. So, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Um, okay. So, I just put here as it pertains to women's rights, because I think that this is what's most important when having this conversation here. Prince Edward Island was the last province in Canada to grant women the right to vote, finally doing so in 1922 after decades of advocacy. So, we have to keep in mind that several of the Anam Green Gables books were already out before Ella Montgomery was even able to vote. Wow. Okay, that's wild. How does that not influence what you're writing about? Yeah. How? Okay. Um, let's see here. It wasn't until 1951 that a woman, Hilda Ramsay, first stood for election to the Prince Edward Island legislature. And then this is something to kind of think about now. Access to safe and legal abortion remains a significant challenge as Prince Edward Island is the only province in Canada that does not offer abortion services within the province. Yeah. Okay. So, that's like going on now. Yeah. That's wild. Um, so you can imagine in 1908 how things may have been. Okay. Mhm. Um, so to talk a little bit about LM Montgomery herself. So I will say I'm guilty of it. I knew nothing about her. Nothing. Nothing. I, you know, I guess I I think the one thing I knew is that she did grow up on Prince Edward Island. I knew that that was a real place. And so to me, I always kind of thought her life must be like Ann's life, right? Like that I just assumed that. Yeah. I didn't really know much about her other than that. Um, so buckle up for this. All right. So, uh, Montgomery was born in Clifton, Prince Edward Island on November 30th, 1874. Her mother died of tuberculosis when Montgomery was 21 month 21 months old. And she was raised by her maternal grandparents. So, I couldn't find anything about her father. So, I don't know if maybe he was like out of the picture from I mean, so people died young back then. Yeah. You know, or were at war or like whatever. Yeah. Off in the mines. I mean, seriously though, like it could have been anything. Like, you know, out to sea, like Yeah. I mean, it was working where you could and sending money home. The late 1800s, early 1900s. Yeah. Um, but I couldn't find anything specifically about her father, just like he didn't seem like he was in the picture ever. So, that actually does track with the Anna Green Gable story, her being an orphan essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so she was raised by maternal grandparents. uh her childhood on Prince Edward Island with its rural landscapes and strong community heavily influenced her writing particularly in Annie Gables cuz she does have a very large cannon of works. So we'll talk about that. Uh she began writing poetry and keeping a journal at a young age with her first poem published at age 15. Wow. Montgomery graduated from Prince of Wales College in Charlottestown with a teaching license in 1894. Again very similar to Amber Green Gables. She achieved international success with the publication of Anna Green Gables in 1908. Wow. The novel, initially rejected by many publishers, became a bestseller and launched her career almost immediately when it came out. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Um, so Montgomery wrote 20 novels. Wow. Over 500 short stories, an autobiography, and lots of poetry. Oo. So there's a If you guys like Anna Green Gables and are looking to delve in, she has literally 20 novels. Wow, that's amazing. I accidentally bought another one and I didn't realize it was her at first. So, I'm looking forward because this is all I've read by her. Yeah. Um, so I'm looking forward to reading some of her other stuff for sure. Yeah. Um, her works have been translated into numerous languages and adapted into various types of media, movies, miniseries, TV shows. Mhm. Um, Montgomery's life while marked by success also included personal struggles. She experienced depression and anxiety and her husband also faced challenges with depression. her biography or her biographer Mary Rubio revealed that both Montgomery and her husband suffered from drug addiction related to medication that they took for depression. While her public persona portrayed a happy and successful author, her personal journals revealed a more complex and troubled life. She passed away on April 24th, 1942 in Toronto with the official cause of death listed as heart failure, though there is speculation that it was actually suicide. So, yeah, she definitely, you know, I didn't want to go into like all the details of her life, um, but you can look it up and, um, I haven't read her autobiography, but I think that, yeah, Mary Rubio did extensive research and went through all of her journals and everything. Yeah. And it kind of almost seems like it's a classic case of someone really struggling and writing something super beautiful that's almost like the complete polar opposite of like how they feel. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so that's interesting to kind of think about that. Yeah. Um a couple things that I thought were uh super important to note in pertaining to this discussion. She actually sued her publisher and won as the judge found that they had systematically cheated her out of profits from the anbooks beginning in 1908. Wow. So she it took a long time. I can't remember exactly how long, but I want to say pro at least 10 years. Wow. Um but she won and she got her money. Good. So yeah. Jeez. I can't remember what it was, but it was something like just when I was reading through all because there was a lot of information about Ellen Montgomery. Okay. Like she's been heavily studied. Um there I want to say they had agreed on maybe like 20 cents per sale or I don't know I could be completely making this up but basically it was like 20 cents per sale or something like that. Yeah. But they were paying her eight. They were paying her like less than half of what was agreed upon and she did not take that lying down. So hey um in terms of sales, okay, so this is really important. Remember the full circle moments I was talking about earlier. in terms of sales both in her lifetime and since Montgomery was the most successful Canadian author of all time. But because her books were seen as children's books and as women's books, she was often dismissed by the critics who saw Montgomery as merely a writer for school girls and not as a serious writer. Even though she was the most successful Canadian author of all time. Wild not surprise, unfortunately. Okay, this is just giving it's giving Fifty Shades of Gray being the like number one bestselling romance of all time over the critically acclaimed like Yeah. wild. Wild. Um, so in 1924, the Maple Leaf magazine asked its readers to nominate the 14 greatest living Canadians, and all of the winners were men. Montgomery only made the runners up, coming in at number 16. Okay, I have a question for you real quick. Yeah, you okay. My school voice cracking. I'm coming of age. Um, my school never assigned any Anna Green Gables books as assigned reading. What about your school? No. Number one bestseller. I know in Canada, but still high. Well, and here. No. So, number one here as well as I don't know how it ranked, but it exploded in the United States as well. And I actually I didn't include this part just because I didn't want to go down too many rabbit holes cuz it would get crazy. We only have an hour. We can only keep you here till 4. Um but it exploded in the United States and there were several articles that I read um in very popular publications at at the time that were critiquing it basically saying they had no idea how this silly little book could become so popular in the United States. And they were using very many opportunities to belittle it as much as possible because yeah, it did explode here too. And I mean they made the movies and the shows and stuff, you know, that were wildly popular and I grew up in a similar like that outdoorsy environment. Yeah, for sure. So, it's just it's crazy to me now that I've read a couple of the books that it's so amazingly written and like we said, the amazing world building, the social injustices, like the different themes that were going on cuz we read so many old and dusty books. Yeah, for sure. You know, and that it's like why wouldn't this one be on that list? It's weird. It is weird. Weird. I think that there's like a fair amount of, and this is something we can talk about a little bit when we get more into the specific episodes, there was a little bit of, you know, I guess you could call it xenophobia in the books, um, towards people, Yankees, quote unquote, Yankees, people from the United States. So, that might have something to do with it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like those kind of things like run really deep, I feel like, um, with the American what gets propaganda machine. Yeah. Exactly. um what you know we choose to teach in our schools. And I feel like something as simple as that might have gotten it kind of rejected early on and then it hasn't been integrated back in. Or it could be as simple as the fact as it was written by a Canadian woman and seen to only be uh appropriate for 10-year-old girls to read so they wouldn't be teaching it in school. But when we were 10-year-old girls, they didn't even That's crazy. Well, because they wouldn't want to subject the boys to having to read it, too. God forbid. God forbid you learn empathy at a young age. Oh my gosh, so weird. So, you know, these this is why I think, you know, pat ourselves on the back. I'm I'm proud of us for covering things like this because it needs to be talked about more. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Here, here. Here, here. So, okay. Okay, so just to kind of tie that back in, you know, we thought it'd be useful to relay all this information so we have context moving forward as we read this books and cover these books and cover the important themes. As we discussed in detail in our episode covering romance books and their origins, women oftentimes and throughout history have still continued to use fiction and still continue to use fiction to critique social issues and politics. So this is not excluding an Green Gables. Yeah. Okay. Um, while novels like Ann of Green Gables may be seen as children's books, mainly appropriate for girls and reduced to only that, the themes are very important and wide reaching. So, we're here to enjoy the books. Like, we're not here to be fun suckers. We're not trying to suck all the fun out of it, but we're also here to discuss how important they are to the canon and to paving the way for other female authors to tell their stories and have more freedom in doing so. Yeah. Because I think, you know, if you're in the, you know, quoteunquote reader community, I think that lots of us are familiar with Anne Shirley and her personality and the way that she was written, but it's bec, you know, it's like that funny meme, you know, like um I'm trying to think of a good example, but basically it's like they walked so they could run and Shirley walked so that Katniss could run. Yeah. And I think that, you know, if you really enjoy books about, you know, quote unquote strong female protagonists, Yeah. Um, you know, this is a real world. It's not a fantasy world, but it's a realworld badass FMC that I think made a lot of our favorites possible. Yeah. 100%. Yep. Wow, dude. It's crazy because it you somebody going like me going in blind other than what I have been subconsciously told what the books were about it was shocking like and I'm reading originally started off reading these out loud to my almost 10-year-old and I'm these are big words you know for sure it's and it's beautifully written and it's so descriptive and you have yeah this large personality and her relationship ships with other people and how they all help each other grow and the social issues at the time and sometimes that's still going on today. And it's so sad that it has what was watered down to just a silly little coming of age for little girls cuz it's something that as a 37year-old I am thoroughly enjoying. I can see what I would have taken out of it as a child and I can see what I'm taking it out of it as an adult, you know, with kids, without kids. It's just it's something for everybody and it's something that should be um given more accolades. Yeah. Well, I think too like I just this kind of popped into my head and I'm sure we'll talk about this more moving forward on the actual um episodes where we cover the books, but I think you know the reason why an Shirley always really resonated with me as a girl was because she was oftentimes initially really misunderstood. Yeah. Because she didn't conform to the traditional female like archetypal gender roles. Yeah. And you know, I think that they use, you know, Montgomery uses the fact that she is uh orphan to kind of almost like give an excuse for the behavior, I think. And so this is a multiaceted issue. Um but I think that, you know, Anna's very quote unquote outwardly emotional. Yeah. She's loud and outspoken. She, you know, goes off on tangents where she'll she's just, you know, talking and talking and talking. She likes to imagine things. She doesn't see a problem with being, you know, creative and just kind of living in her fantasies. Yeah. Um, and I think that these are all qualities in girls that are snuffed out. Yeah. We're told to be quiet and sit down. Yeah. And told to grow up and um you know kind of lose that really intense sense of imagination and wonder and um you know it's not rosecolored glasses because she doesn't have rosecolored glasses. Her parents both died. She's an orphan who was living in an orphanage until she was 11. And she still manages to see the world as a somewhat mostly good place to be. Yeah. And I think that the reason why she's able to do that is because she allows herself to imagine the world as a more I don't know like beautiful place almost. Um and I think lots of times yeah that's snuffed out at an early age because it's silly, it's unnecessary. It's illogical. I'm putting that in air quotes. you know, it's um you know, overly emotional and all of those other qualities that we as a society give more legitimacy to. You know, being like not being silly, being stern or serious, you know, being quote unquote logical, being less emotional. Um, you know, those are all things that are attributed generally with a more male, whatever you want to call it, countenance, even though we know that's not to be the case. Um, and I think that that's one of the reasons, too, why probably, you know, this book doesn't get taken as seriously as it should. Yeah. Because heaven forbid we teach little girls that they could be like an Shirley. Yeah. And I feel like now things are improving for sure, but I feel like I always really really related to her. Mhm. Um, and you know, sometimes, like I was just telling you, sometimes my husband will be like, "Oh my god, like how did you end up so dramatic?" And Ann Shirley literally comes to mind. And I'm like, "First of all, it's not a bad thing to be dramatic." Yeah. Second of all, is it dramatic or is it me just like feeling my feelings and being okay with not silencing myself because I know it's okay to have a wide spectrum of feelings and show them. Um, and I think that's one of the things that Annie does really well. Yes. Yeah, agreed. So, hey, we'll just we'll we'll come off our soap box now. We're getting back up there. Yeah, exactly. We ain't getting down. Oh, so yeah, we want you guys to keep these things in mind when we're moving forward into this Friday's episode where we're going to be covering all the books, but starting with Ann of Green Gables and Ann of Aly, we'll have a response and reaction type deep dive where we've always had with our many episodes miniseries. You can expect the five sentence summary. I'm telling Liz like because she's our five sentence summary queen over here. It's two books in one. So, usually we say five sentences or less. I said, "Hey, five sentences or more if you need to." I did I did them in like I will tell you, spoiler alert, I did books one and two in five sentences. So, you got to pick from the treasure box. You got to get one of those one day. For real. Yeah. It's just Edward cutouts for your book room. So, uh, so yeah, the and of course there'll be a new musical instrument making an appearance for those five sentence summaries and we'll be, uh, diving into the themes surrounding these coming of age stories. Why telling girls and women their stories in particular are unique and important and what critiques on society politics are being made through the eyes of an Shirley. We hope that you guys join us in this. We're so excited. If there are any other like specifically coming of age stories or books, novel series that you guys think we should cover in future episodes, definitely leave us a comment down there and we will, you know, find the time in one of our miniseries. Yeah, I mean, we're, you know, we already have our, you know, fall winter miniseries planned out. Um, but next year, you know, we are going to do, we try to do one a quarter, so we're going to cover four. We have ideas for sure. where we have things that are kind of slotted in, but if you guys send us a really good idea, we could change our mind. Yeah. You know, we're definitely just want to cover some of these like classic literatures that we weren't assigned and didn't pick up on our own. You know, like I've never read Jane Air before. I feel like it'd be interesting. I need I should do that. Yeah. It's not enough to be a miniseries, but hey, what if we did a miniseries of like four classic books authors, you know? I've never read Pride and Prejudice. Yeah, me neither. So that's crazy. So we maybe maybe we should think about that. Why would you guys like that? Let us know. Yeah, let us know. I mean, obviously they have huge fandoms on in the book community. Yeah, for sure. I mean, even to tie it back in, that is what my uh smasher passes for today. There we go. Let's time for our unhinged smasher pass. I mean, this one's not really unhinged. Um I mean, it kind of I don't know. It's just it's personal taste. Okay. Um, so I thought we should stick with kind of this theme. We don't want to do a smash or pass for anything Ann of Ring Gables related yet because we'll wait until later once we're actually in and talking about the books. Um, but I was just curious. Smasher Pass, you have to pick a Mr. Darcy. Okay. But is it Colin FTH or Matthew McFaden? Show me them. Yes. So I have pictures ready. Okay. Okay. This is Matthew. This is good old Matthew. Man scene. That's all that I know. I haven't watched the movie either. You guys are familiar. I have seen the movie. I have seen the movies for sure. Okay. Or classic Colin FTH from the '9s version. Cuz there's just something about him that I can't put I've never been able to put my finger on, you know? That's great. Just can't. He's just out of reach. Would call in. Go with Yeah. Like in love actually in everything that he's in. He's great. Yeah. Um I'm going to go with the first one just for the hand scene alone. Smash the hand scene all day. Smash the hand scene. It's great. See, okay. He has that angsty pining that I've seen in the little snippets that I've seen. Um, smash all day. Well, well, here's the thing. Okay, so we will have to watch both of these. Okay, after we read it, after we read Pride and Prejudice for the first time, and then we'll have to report back and see if our opinions have changed because currently I am I'm a diehard Colin for Earth lady. I love him in everything. Yeah. Um I have since I'm like I don't know like what did I even see him in? I know like love actually was definitely one of the solidifying roles for me with him. Um but yeah, I've just always really liked him. So I'm going to go with him. Okay. All right. Locked in. Locked in. And then we'll have to report back. Let us know if you think that we should do this go on this journey. See in a lot of those classic literatures they have they have movies too. So that'd be fun. Oh yeah. I think probably like all of them. I think Bolto was a book, so we'll go with that. But this is based on the movie. Okay. You remember Bolto? I do. He's a dog, right? Yeah. But I'm not doing Bolto cuz I'm pretty sure we've already done him. Oh, okay. Do you remember Steel the villain dog in Bolto? I don't. Okay, I'll show you. Yeah, look it up. So, Smasher Pass. I feel like Bolto's a smash. So, he's probably definitely a Smash. Okay. What was his name again? Steel in Balto. All right. Let's see. I mean, yeah, for sure. If you were a dog, dude. If I was a dog, dude. Okay, I have to say cuz I just rewatched it with my kids and they loved it and we were laughing. It's so good. It's definitely a book cuz my daughter just read it in school. Yeah, look at him. He's He's like if a grumpy It's like he is if Who am I trying to think of right now? Exactly. If Luther from That's who it is. If that's who he looks like to me. If Luther from Spark of the Everflame was a dog. Yeah. He'd look like this. Yes. Yeah. He's a shadow daddy dog. Yeah. He's like um Yeah. Like if King Fisher was a dog. Yes. But okay. His So watching it cuz his personality is terrible. Oh, is he? He is. So we're going off looks only. Um but but terrible. But one thing specifically he does, it's terrible. The rest of it's great. He's super grumpy and mean cuz he's a villain. He's supposed to be a bad guy. Yeah. Um, but he's very Gastoncoated like the mannerisms. Like I'm like this is the same person that drew this dog. I put Geston in a dog. There you go. Gaston in a dog. In a dog suit. No, the same vibes in a dog suit. Throws a dog. Yeah. His It's totally shadow daddy dog vibes. I love that. So there you go, guys. Sometimes you could when you know you know. When you know, you know. You knew it right away. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. Oh. So, on that note, hopefully you guys learned something today. We ended very serious, too. So, that's important. We're balanced over here, guys. We're balanced. It's true. We're like a wellbalanced machine. Anyways, yes, thank you guys so much for stopping in today and hearing this kind of warm-up episode, deep dive. Thank you, Liz, for getting us on the research over there. We appreciate it. And make sure to like, follow, and subscribe anywhere you like to listen your favorite podcast, including YouTube. That way, you don't miss out. We'll still be having our normal Tuesday episodes. If you're not going to be doing our Green Gables journey with us, but if you are, those are going to be every Friday for the next five Fridays. So, buckle up, buttercups. We're ready to go. You can also follow us on Instagram and Tik Tok. We're at Besties in the Books podcast everywhere except Fable, which is our virtual book club. Besties in the book club. There we go. I always stutter on that one because it's a lot of book clubs. Besties and books. A lot of bees. A lot of bees up in this bee. All right, you guys. We'll see you next Tuesday and Friday. Tuesday. Okay. Tuesday and Friday. Just remember that. Okay. Bye.[Music]