"Are People Born Wicked?" Wicked Book 1 Review and Summary | Deep Themes and Deep Thoughts

Today we begin our coverage of the Wicked 5-book universe by Gregory Maguire. We’re diving into political fantasy like we never have before, just in time to watch Wicked for Good with all of you! 

Check out our latest Tuesday full length episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Z1NeJej2k all about why books and reading are inherently political, why it’s not only important to acknowledge this, but to read our favorite books through this lens, and how Maguire uses the fantastical to expertly critique issues like authoritarianism, colonialism, and racism. We also provide a bit of context by discussing what political happenings were taking place when Wicked was written, and what influences the Wizard of Oz and L. Frank Baum may have had on this more current work. 

In this episode we dive into book one: Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West in which we experience the hostile takeover of Oz by the Wizard, a fascist dictator, through the eyes of Elphaba, the flawed and ultimately the unfortunate martyr to the resistance. Who were our favorite and least favorite characters and plot points? Do we think these books can be separated from politics just because they’re fantasy?  What philosophical questions are posed? And what literary devices does Maguire use to critique government structures and the ensuing “isms?”

Fantasy tales can be so much more than surface level storytelling, and often are. We’re here to discover why! Listen on for our reviews of book one, our deep dive reactions, and fun facts about the book that started the Wicked phenomena!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Spoiler Free Intro
• 13:48 Wicked Book Review
• 18:00 5 Sentence Wicked Summary
• 24:05 Fav and Least Favorite Things in Wicked
• 26:28 [Ad] The Podcast Inside Your House
• 27:16 (Cont.) Fav and Least Favorite Things in Wicked
• 35:09 [Ad] You've Got to Be Critting Me
• 35:48 (Cont.) Fav and Least Favorite Things in Wicked
• 52:46 Philosophical Questions in Wicked
• 1:08:05 Political Problems and Themes in Wicked
• 1:22:54 Are You Excited for Son of a Witch?
• 1:26:25 Wicked Book Quotes
• 1:31:25 Bonus Questions - Is Wicked Ok for Kids to Read?
• 1:37:25 Wicked Fun Fact!

Transcript

Does wickedness happen or is wickedness thrust upon us? All the different pieces of lore that connect to lead us to this moment. Settle a debate. Is it appropriate for younger audiences? Able to shock me from time to time. [Music] Welcome to the Besties in the Books podcast. I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And today is officially the kickoff of the book deep dive episodes for Wicked.

Yeah, right. Okay. Hey, it was excellent. 10 out of It's vibes, man. We're vibing over here. If you're not watching YouTube video, we got the green and the pink making a resurgence from last year's episode. We're so excited. We're so excited. This time we're getting in real deep. We are getting in really deep. Yeah, we're like we're we're taking you on the deep dive. Did you guys listen to Tuesday's episode? You know. Okay. So, yeah. So, today we're going to be covering the book that started it all. I mean, it technically didn't start at all. The Wizard of Oz started it all, but this started this all. Yeah. We're going to be covering the original book Wicked by Gregory Maguire that was released in 1995. So, I also want to mention here that the Broadway musical play followed eight years later. So, you know, obviously what we're wearing our t-shirts here for, dawning the gay apparel. Yes. Yes. Musical t-shirts. um eight years later in 2003. And then finally the movie adaptation which we all know and love that released just last year with the final one coming out on November 21st. I'm so so so excited. Who's with us? [Laughter] You're like I'm just going to say that to everything. I'm so mad that the like soundtrack for that one's not out yet, but I have heard the little teasers of it, you know. Well, you can listen to the Broadway soundtrack. I know, but I want the new rendition, too. Also, I know, cuz I already burned that one to Phil last year. Yeah. Um, but you know, that's why we're here. We're here to discuss what wicked what wicked is truly about. Um, to answer the question of popular debate, unfortunately, uh, on Bookstagram and Book Talk, are books political or should, uh, fiction be kept separate from politics? And if so, can that even happen? Is that even a possibility? Is that even possible? If you listen to Tuesday's episode, you probably know how we feel about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, guys, it's our favorite season over here. Best season in the book. So, it's just no better time than now to get into this spooky season and start discussing what makes someone or something evil. It's a big theme. Big theme of this evil question. Evil. evil? Are individuals inherently good and then corrupted? Does wickedness happen or is wickedness thrust upon us? As Glenda says, this is just one of the questions that we'll be diving into moving forward in the sevenpart series. As we talked about, we already kicked it off on Tuesday. We examine in a little over an hour because hey, we're not calling these miniseries anymore. They are henceforth bonus series. every Friday when we're covering these books in a deep dive because we just we need more time. Yeah, there's that many about a longer episode than Tuesday's normal episode. I'm surprised more people don't complain about it, but you guys are awesome cuz you just you want more and I love it. So, thank you for your support. We appreciate it so much. the history of the access to information and reading early works in US history, the thesis and motivation, political theories, and which topics we believe that Mr. Gregory Maguire used in fantasy to antagonize. We're going to be talking about all those things. We have started the discussion and it's going to be continuing on because this book slaps you in the face with it. Okay. Right. When you open it, big time. Yeah. Yeah. No spoilers yet, but just a quick little teaser, you know. Yeah. So, we'll even briefly discuss some popular fictions in the context of this discussion, starting with the book that Liz said started it all, Wizard of Oz. H. Yes. By Elrank Bomb. Is that Did I say it right? Bomb. Yeah. Yeah. Published 1900. Followed by 13 additional Oz books. Fun fact that I've heard was against his will. Maybe not all 13, but I I remember, don't quote me on this, but I remember reading something last year about the heavy pressures to continue the series and he just wanted to be done. He just wanted one and done. U and I think they ended up taking a life of their own. Maybe some other author authors, you know, took over, but that's that's another deep dive for another time. So, we're talking about Wicked today. And then, of course, Wizard of Oz was also a Broadway musical, which I've seen with you in high school. Do you remember that? That's crazy. Where did we see that one at? I don't even remember. Maybe like Bakersfield High School or something. Wherever they did the Nutcracker. Okay. Huh. No, I don't really remember. You don't remember that? Uhuh. Wonder if that was one that you were sick for. I don't remember who was putting it on, but we happened to see it. It was great. It was great. Um, Little Scandalous a little bit. There was some Scandalous little musical numbers in there. And of course, we all know and love the groundbreaking movie with Miss Judy Garland in 1939.

It's like all the different pieces of lore that connect to lead us to this moment, this podcast episode. Yep. So, we're going to be giving you all of our thoughts on book one specifically today. Built brick by yellow brick. Yes, if you will. If you will indeed. Yeah. And I will Oh, one more. And another thing. Hang on. Accessibility. Let's talk about accessibility for a second. You can get all the Wicked books on Kindle Unlimited right now if you have that monthly subscription. The Libby app, which you can download for free if you have a library card. If you don't have one yet, you can go to like a library for free and get a library card, download the app, and then you just put in your information, your library number, and you can get free downloads if they're available because sometimes you do have to go on a wait list. I think Liz is on a wait list right now for her series. Mine were all available right away. So, you can read this series for free and I just love that so much. Yeah. How cool. That is very cool. But you could also check it out obviously at your local library, too. But in case you want to do an ebook, you know, or an audio book, the audio is on there, too. Cool. So, yeah. Perfect. There we go. I have my old copy back here from college sitting here behind me. The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West. Uh, so technically today is the second episode in the series following our book's political episode that came out on Tuesday. like Ashley just said, um, we'll be moving on to, you know, the books that he started releasing in 2005. So, I thought that was really interesting when I was looking all this up is that Wicked came out in 1995. Gregory Maguire took 10 years off of writing the series, came back um in 2005, and then came out with um A Lion Among Men, so book three, book four out of Oz. And then after that, we have another 14 years before Elfie comes out. So, this is like a pretty long time span, which I think is kind of unique um to the series. And then and we're going to be covering all of those. So, that's what you guys can expect is that every Friday we'll be doing a deep dive on one of those books. And then we will be wrapping it up with our thoughts on the musical, which we were both really, you know, lucky enough to see this year. And um obviously the movie that I'm sure both of us will be going to probably as close to opening weekend as we can. Yep. Yeah, for sure. Um, and you know, that wrap-up episode will come out at the very beginning of December to give you guys enough time to go out and watch it and maybe read some books if you want to, and we'll compare. We'll rank them all. We'll talk about similarities and differences, what we liked and disliked. Um, yeah, I'm really, really excited to start this journey because Wicked was a doozy and Ashley and I have not really discussed it yet. So, here we are. Yeah. So, I feel like, you know, every time we start a new bonus series, yeah, we have to retrain ourselves. Bonus series. Yeah. Um, you know, we like to ask ourselves and explain to you guys why are we doing this? So, you know, what's our why with this whole Wicked series? It's basically because as much as we love the play in the movie versions of Wicked, there is a lot more there's a lot more discussions happening in the book version. Um, and we think that, you know, in the book world, this these discussions need to kind of like be brought to the forefront a little bit more, I think. So, that's a big part of it. Plus, we want to really like experience the collective hype with you guys about like the new movie coming out as well. Um, and to maybe, you know, perhaps if you're reading along with us too, like create a little bit of context for that movie when it comes out as well. Um, this is a reread for me, but I read these so long ago that I remember basically nothing. Like, I'd say and I did read them like literally in beauty school, so it was probably like I was constantly like interrupted or like multitasking as well. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, I feel like I'm reading them for the first time even though I did not. I am not. Um, and then for you, this is your first time reading all of the books. Correct. Um, yes. So, yeah, I'm just really excited to talk about, you know, one of my favorite fairy tales and like this world just becoming like so much bigger. Yeah. So, before we get into it, we just want to say thank you so much for being here. Thank you guys so much for being here. Take time out of your day and you're booked. Come hang out with us. Listen, we are trying to be the water cooler of the future. So that's specifically like what brought us to doing this deep dive deep dive episode series during this time leading up to the movie release because hey are you like us and sometimes don't have anybody to talk to about these movies that you watch and you're just like I want to scream it from the mountains either it was so good or the themes that were involved and you need to digest it. Last year I was at my parents for Thanksgiving. We do Thanksgiving on Saturdays. I was listening a voice memo from her. She was like, "Dude, you need to see Wicked. We need to talk about this. We need to make this a thing. We need to do an episode on it." And I'm just like, "I don't know nothing about nobody cuz I haven't seen the musical yet. I haven't read the books. I don't know. I'm excited cuz it's a musical, but I know nothing. I'll get back to you." Promptly watched it. Got back to her. Oh my gosh. I can't stop thinking about it. I can't stop listening to it. I can't I got to do it. Let's go. Boom. Let's go. We brought you that first episode which is just like a fun old time which I'll link down in the description box if you want to check that out because that covers the first movie and some other stuff. And um hey so make sure to like, follow, and subscribe so you don't miss out on all these episodes that we're going to bring you because that is what we're trying to do here. Water kill the future. You have somebody to talk about. You can leave a comment if you've read these books, what you think of them. Are we way off base with anything that we say? Do you agree? Like whatever. Come chat. Come hang out. You can find us on Instagram and Tik Tok. We're at Besties and Books Podcast everywhere. You can leave us comments now on Spotify and YouTube. It's super cool. And if you have time, you can rate and review us. That'd be so great. It helps us out a lot. We appreciate you guys. Yeah. So, uh, first fiveish or so minutes will be spoilerfree because we'll be giving you guys our basic star, um, and technically spice ratings because we do that for everything. Um, and then we'll get into our deep dive where we'll be giving you guys kind of the usual. So, you know, we talk about our least favorite character, more favorite or most favorite character, favorite part, least favorite part, but because, you know, the theme of this series is our books political, we'll also be talking about maybe some philosophical questions that, you know, this story poses, some political problems that the story poses, um, you know, and diving a little bit deeper into that as well. So, you know, we're hoping to have fun here, but then also to talk about the important things that we think that lots of times fiction can kind of help us to digest and fantasy can make a little bit, you know, I don't want to say easier on the brain, but kind of like it can put it into a story that I think you're removed from it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a way to examine, you know, really important topics and uh complex topics while also being able to immerse yourself in a story that allows you to escape from real life, too. And you know, when I was reading the afterward in Wicked that Gregory Magguire wrote, he like he talks about how important that specific thing is to do and why fantasy is so important and um because you can still experience a lot of these things but through a fantastical world. Yeah. So, I really appreciated that. Yep. Can relate. Okay. So, do you want to give us your spoiler-free just quick little one-s sentenceish review with your star rating? All right, let's go. Okay. Five stars. No surprise there. A thoughtprovoking novel. Important social, political, and existential issues. Now, I will say, blast me if you want, wasn't my favorite writing style. It was cuz it's a very philosophically worded type of style of reading. So, it's a little bit of adjustments from other style fantasy books that I read. It does time hop a lot, which always gives me a second, you know, but it's it's a thoughtprovoking piece, and it's not it's not simple and easy and chill. So, yes, five stars, even though Yeah, I would say that that's that's my caveat with it. Yeah. Mhm. Because I'm critiquing the context of the story is what is five stars. Now, obviously, I'm still thinking about it. So, hey. Um, yeah, I rated it five stars as well. Interestingly enough, one of the things that I liked about it were was the pros. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, like I am a sucker for something that's written, you know, like I don't even know how to describe it. Yeah. Like it's poetic, it's flowery, it's like, you know, I guess some could argue like needlessly wordy at times, you know. And I definitely I I like that kind of change sometimes from um you know what we quote unquote normally read. And so I appreciated it for that. But yeah, it's definitely not something that you're just going to fly through in a day. Like you're probably going to need some time to like digest it. Um, but yeah, five stars for, you know, being able to create a very, very complex world because even though it takes place in Oz, I mean, it's been a long time since I've read The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, but I dare say that like the world building in this really, he takes his own creative license to make something that's, you know, you I felt like I was like fully invested in a lot of these characters plates. Yeah. And it really sucked me in. And I also really liked that Alphaba's character was really wellrounded and um relatable, but also not very relatable. Like I appreciated that. And same with Glenda. So yeah. Yeah. Five stars for me all around. Social political commentary on point. um also, you know, able to shock me from time to time with the intensity of the work in a way that a lot of books don't do. Um so yeah, five stars for all those reasons. Um and I would say, you know, this book I would give it a one spice rating. So it's not necessarily like the spice is high or anything like that, but there are, you know, some scenes in there. So, just as we talked about before, too, like uh not for kids for sure, which we will Yeah, we'll dive more into that in the spoiler section if you want to know why it's not for kids. But yeah, I'm trying to see are there trigger warnings? Cuz there's some interesting um intentional spicy scenes, as you say. It's not. There are some romance scenes. Um, but there are some graphic scenes in there that are a little uh jarring is the best way to put it. And if you're not expecting it, I knew this going into it that there was. So, if you're not expecting it, it would be even more jarring. So, just know that going into it. Listen, these books that he writes like as a retelling, they're not they're not for children. He very explicitly says that, but that can't be misleading because, you know, you have Cinderella, he wrote Cinder is a retelling. Uh, Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, which I started multiple times and never finished, that is obviously the stepsister retelling. So, I don't see a trigger warning list in here. Um, but yeah, just know that going into it. Yeah, if you can't stay for the spoiler section cuz you were interested in reading it. So, should we get into our spoiler section then? Let's go. [Applause] Keep doing it. Like, okay, enough. Spoilers coming up, guys. If you don't want to hear the spoilers, go on, get save it to your playlist. Come back later when you're done reading the book. You might be like, well, I watched the movie. How different can it be? Well, very very spoiler very. Oh, very different. Same bones, different body. Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense, but yes, totally. Yeah, totally. Um, and yeah, disclaimer, did the best I could, but a lot happens in this book, so I had to leave out a lot of stuff. So, this is just it's just the bearman's, you know what I mean? Okay. All right. Alphaba Throp is born the green-skinned somewhat animallike with a capital A, daughter to Molina and Fxbar Throp, a woman who renounced her royal position as the granddaughter to the eminent throb of Munchkin land in a religious missionary with a tendency towards blind zealous uh religious zealatism with a savior complex.

Did you get it? Yes. Yeah. Nailed it. nailed it. For musical instrument in this installment, we bring you the children's style with animals, capital A, printed on it. Um, what the hell is this thing called again? Harmonica. Harmonica. I keep wanting to say kazoo, so I needed an assist on that. Yeah, it's a tangentially related instrument. My other daughter has an even better one, but I could not find it. But hey, this is great. So I was like, "Look no further." And it has animals, so hey, perfect. Anyways, one one. Okay. They live in a far-off fishing village called Rush Margins, where Fra is often away, and where Molina begins an affair with a quadling named Turtleheart, who is on a journey to request help because his homelands and people are being systematically killed and destroyed in order to mine the rubies that exist there. The drought in Oz has caused significant discord among the citizens which have been has been amplified by the usurper, the quote unquote wizard who flew in on a balloon one day and took over the throne making himself somewhat of a fascist dictator pitting all the different factions against one each against each other.

Two I mean pretty good. That's pretty good. Hey, I practiced every night for five years. for five years for this moment. Five sentences, five years. Let's go. Yep. Uh Molina dies in childbirth and Turtle Hart is killed by religious zealots, leaving FX to dot after Nessa Rose, their second daughter born with no arms, who we speculate is Turtle Heart's true daughter, and their youngest, a son born by all accounts quote unquote normal, named Shell, who later goes on to become an undercover agent for the resistance, fighting under the increasingly tyrannical rule of the wizard who is stripping rights from citizens, putting them in camps, and criminalizing any descent.

I'm gonna have to learn some more parts of this song here. No, it's good. It's good. Three. Okay. In college, Alphaba and Galinda become unlikely friends. Though Galinda is a regular rule follower, while Alphaba leads an underground movement to help Dr. Dilland, a previous professor and goat with a capital G at Chis University, prove that animals deserve rights and are sentient before the wizard's army finds out and murders him. Alphaba, Glenda, and Nessa are approached by Madame Morble, essentially the wizard's henchmen, to join them by being highle members of the Secret Service, but Alphaba refuses, goes into hiding, and ultimately starts up a love affair with Fier, who was also killed due to his minimal involvement in the resistance.

It's getting more and more obnoxious. Well, it's like literally I mean I think that Gregory Maguire refers to this book, he calls it a tragedy. It's like and it really is. And so it's kind of funny with the harmonica, you know, just trying to lighten the mood a little. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Alphaba goes into hiding for many more years at a nunnery, but ultimately travels to Fier's wife and children at their castle in Kiamo to apologize for her part in his death with their son Lear, who she birthed while in a coma, and several animals, including her monkey, Chisery. But they are ambushed by the wizard's army, and all but one child, Nor, who was taken as prisoner, is killed. Alphabet finds out that her sister Nessa, the birthright leader of Munchkin Land, who rebelled against the wizard and seceded, has died due to a human girl dropping a house on her. She attempts to follow her and her unlikely companions in order to get Nets's magic shoes back, but ultimately retreats back to her stronghold in Kiamoko, where she discovers the wizard is her father and where Dorothy travels, tries to explain, and ultimately dumps water on Alphaba to help put her broom that has caught on fire out, causing her death, but leading to political chaos and ultimately a revolution.

I mean, that was pretty good. Five. Listen.

Maybe five paragraphs, not five sentences. But what is a sentence? But the start with a capital, the end with a period. Good job, Liz. We'll let it we'll let it pass, dude. Yeah, that was like really hard. Well, because I felt like it's like there was just I couldn't leave out any major characters deaths, right? Like that's important. And then it's like, and I still feel like I left everything out, you know, still. Hey, it's a heat of the ever flame situation. So, yeah, you did. But worse, honestly, the best you could. That's a great summary, though. Great book summary. Wicked book summary. Good job. That's what the people needed. That's what people want. Great. Thank you. Okay, so let's get into the questions. The questions of ours. What was your Let's just start with least favorite part cuz there was a lot of bad parts in here, a lot of sad parts. Uh what was your least favorite part of Wicked? Oo, you know, I did struggle with the beginning. Um okay, which was a bit of her mother's story, her mother's perspective, and it was just so sad to see an Alpha's upbringing, how she's just constantly being tossed aside and very like, are they going to kill her any second? That's kind of how it felt like. like just throw off a cliff. Um, and yeah, it's just tragic. Intentional. I wouldn't take any of it out obviously, but it was a personal slog for me in the beginning, too, to get into the writing vibe of the writing style. So, that's why I picked it as my least favorite part. I wouldn't change anything, however. But, hey. Mhm. Yeah. Well, we can't we can't like it all, right? There has to be some conflict going on. Yeah. What about you? What about you? Uh, well, just in case you guys uh uh have any kids listening, maybe don't anymore, I guess, is a good way to put it. Um, okay. So, my least favorite part was Dr. Dillam getting his throat slit. Oh, yeah. Whoa. Um, that was pretty brutal. Um, I did not remember that from the first time I read it and I was like, whoa, I did not rem or remember that being so violent. And then also um hey that symbolism though. Yeah, for sure. He's speaking out and he's speaking. Cut him at the knees if you will, you know. Yeah. Um, and then uh similarly the animals in the barn who Alphaba sets free who are basically trying to explain to her how bad things have gotten in Munching Land since she's been gone out in the middle of nowhere where she's basically like, "Hey, we're going to, you know, I'm going to let you free. You're free. You're free to go." And they're like, "We don't have any rights anyway." And they're just going to round us back up and put us back in here and then they're going to punish us by eating us. Yeah. So, yeah, definitely didn't love that. Yeah. Yeah. Super sad, super terrible. Um, what about your favorite part with the tragic story, it's so tricky. Um, but I did like the world's colliding. Thought that was fun in the way of once Dorothy answers the chat, if you will, that world's colliding in a way. I really liked seeing what and how Gregory Maguire filled in the gaps and built this entire world and story off of somebody who's not necessarily a main character in the Wizard of Oz and made the main character the side character, you know? So, that was super interesting to see and purposeful and intentional a different perspective like you only get one side of the story, right? And I think that's something that's in the marketing too, like there's two sides to every story or whatever with Dorothy's side in the Wizard of Oz. And to see this entire world built out from that semi smaller story, I just loved that. And seeing all of the pieces filled in and the gaps filled in and then now we get to the aftermath later on and what happens when the wizard leaves. I'm super curious to find out, you know. So yeah, that's probably my favorite part if I had to pick one. Okay. Yeah. What about you? Uh, okay. My favorite part is really dark because I think that one of the things that in my opinion I think that the movie and the play do differently is they they really portray Alphaba as at her core a good person I think right like she's a good person trying to do good but struggling because she's working inside a corrupt system, right? And she's young, so she's trying to also figure it out. Yeah. Um, what I liked, so my favorite part, this is going to sound so bad. My favorite part in the book was Alphaba killing Chef with the bees. Mhm. Killing Manic with the ice and then bashing Madame War's head in with a trophy. The reason why is because I think that it showed more of a well-rounded, deeper character. Mhm. That she isn't necessarily just this good person who's painted as evil, but also is someone who does bad things. Yeah. Whether intentional or not. I mean, obviously bashing Madame War's head in with a a trophy or whatever is bad, but Well, she was already dead, though. So, she Well, she was already dead, but Ela would wish she wasn't. Yeah, right. Yeah. True. True. True. Fair. Yeah. Um, and you know, she recognized that she didn't mean to kill Chef with the bees and she didn't mean to kill Manic with the ice, but she wasn't sorry, right? Yeah. She didn't show remorse for it, and she wasn't sad that it happened. And so I think that that's something that I did appreciate the uh in the book because I think that it just uh created a more complex character within Alphaba. Yeah. Yep. Mhm. So what about your least favorite character? So the question of is evil, you know, born, is it made? Is it intrinsic? Does evil even exist in the first place? Well, I'll tell you who evil incarnate is. Plain and simple. That's going to go to Manic, the little kid who put Lear into the well. In the well. Shut it and forgot about him for at least a day. And they were constantly like bullying him and picking on him. And those are children, you know, and they're they're not around necessarily evil people that are like, you know, they're just uh very flippant um parental figures and they're just dude, what a crappy crappy kid. So, least favorite is going to go to him because I think this is what I really liked about the book in general is the dissection of people as not onedimensional. I think we love that in all the books that we read, right? But it's specific specifically uh themed throughout this story is that people are not black and white. There's several layers and there's different things that make up a person and it's just not simple as good and evil as opposed to except that one kid except for him. He's evil. He's evil. So that's easy. But everybody else though is I really did appreciate that like you know Alphaba's mom like okay but you know you get to see like the full picture of her as much as you know more than just someone who's having an affair you know and it's not even making excuses for people it's just seeing the person as as much of a whole as we can that we're given from this author. So I just appreciate that. Well, and it's like you can cast your judgments on I think the other thing is you can cast your judgments on others, but then at the end of the day, it's like how much do we really know about what's going on, right? It's like I think that's something that I appreciated is the fact that, you know, Nessa Rose is presumably Turtle Heart's child, but then you find out that FX was also in love with Turtle Heart. Yeah. Mhm. And was like, well, if she's having an affair, like, is he not? You know what I mean? So, were they all in a relationship together? You never really know what's going on. And I think that that's another part, too. Yeah. And I didn't pick the wizard or Madam Morble because they're supposed to be the villains, right? So, yeah. Yeah. I think Madam Morble was definitely a villain for sure. Intentionally through and through. So, my least favorite characters I had I couldn't choose. I can sense because so I actually picked FX, Glenda, and the wizard. And the reason being all the it's the same reason. And it's because I would argue that the wizard actually isn't inherently evil. I think he gets caught up in a political scheme and is probably being manipulated by a lot of other people, too. I don't know for sure. Um, but I definitely know that FX and Glinda are part of that or Glinda, whatever you want to call them. And so I think my personal opinion, sometimes the people who are openly evil and manipulative like Madame Morble are actually less dangerous. Yeah. Than the people like FX and Glenda who are supposedly doing good. Mhm. but are complacent in the atrocities. Yeah. And so it's like obviously the wizard's a bad guy for sure, but then also it's like well but we don't really know his full story either, which I think is kind of interesting. It's like we know that he came here from presumably the human world. He probably b brought a lot of the political ideologies from the human world to Oz and then is, you know, greedy with power. But how much of that is being I guess like like he's a puppet fueled. Yeah, he's a puppet. He's being fueled by people like Madame Morble, by people like Glenda, by people like Freck that turn a blind eye because all that matters to them is religion. You know what I mean? And so I feel like it's like part of this whole machine. So yeah, I had a hard time kind of deciding um who was the worst. Yeah. I feel like it's they're all kind of part of the same problem. Yeah, for sure. So, who is your favorite character? Yeah. Again, because everyone is so complex and dynamic, it's a little bit tricky. So, I'm going to go with our sweet Dr. Diddleman. Dillamin. Yeah. Oh, loved him. He was a good character for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, I put him as my backup, but Alpha is my favorite character. Of course, Alphaba though, she's Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. She's just a good character. And I think that, you know, as amazing as she is in the play, in the movie, I think that I liked her even better in the book because of the fact that she's not she's just who she is. You know what I mean? It's like and she's good and bad and she's complex and interesting and she's not even necessarily like Like something that I did find interesting is she's not even necessarily like this amazing sorceress. Yeah. In the book, you know what I mean? It's she's not she doesn't necessarily even have like a super interest in magic. Like she's just trying to like be the resistance, you know? Yeah. Mhm. So, and she has a very um realworld plight, I think, in her experience in the resistance. She has her place in the college, you know, uh, in Shiz, which I hate that name, by the way, but and then Shiz where she's actively starting the resistance and forming a group and then has this crazy situation come up with Madame Morble and going and seeing the wizard and deciding to leave and run away and then go in hiding as an assassin, if you will. And that kind of doesn't work out for her well. So she leaves, she goes and hides for real cuz everybody thinks she's dead, you know? So it's like it's just an interesting plight to read about. It's not so cut and dry, you know? You die, you live by the sword, die by the sword, you're a martyr. No, she like it didn't work out. She left. She goes to try to make amends. People aren't accepting of it. And she's kind of her hand is forced again to go and be a part of the resistance a little bit again. Yeah. you know, to go to get. She's just honestly a lady that's traumatized by everybody and is trying to get a little sense of personal justice at the end of the day. That's what it feels like. But also, you know, justice for I think she is working for the greater good because she understands that what's happening to, you know, it starts off with the animals, you know, capital A. It's like it starts off with them, but then it expands out when she sees what's happening to, you know, people like the um I can't I can't remember what he is. Turtle Heart, where does he come from? I don't remember. You said it earlier. Yeah, the Quadling people. Yeah. So, when she sees what's happening to the Quadling people and then Yeah. just other types of people in general, I think that it expands out. So she does have like this I think inherent like like push internally to make the world more just for people and animals but doesn't necessarily know how to go about that. And she even talks about that. She's like I don't really know how to do this. I'm just kind of like you know putting one foot in front of the other basically. Yeah. There's no handbook. Yeah. Yeah. So, let's see here. So, at the end of the day, like how did reading Wicked make you feel? Pissed, but not at the book. Uhhuh. You know, pissed um at seeing the parallels of injustices in real life versus in the book. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I would say like kind of same kind of same. I think the things that like bothered me the most and I think this is kind of relevant, you know, being a vegan were like, you know, there was even one, and I get it. I think I understand why Gregory Magcguire did this. It's like, you know, Alpha Alphaba would be so angry at people when they would be like eating, you know, some type of, you know, meat or whatever because she'd be like, "Well, how do you know that that's not like a chicken, capital C?" You know what I mean? Like, you have no way to know. But there were were a couple instances where she ate animals too. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. And I get it because people are complex and you know things like we need to be flexible and things are gray area, but at the same time like I feel like moments like that were kind of hard for me to deal with like as a vegan cuz I was like what's going on? Like what is she doing? like you're literally like fighting for animal rights and recognizing that at this point in time it's almost impossible to tell the difference between a sentient and a non-scentient animal if that even was really real to begin with. And yet you're kind of going against your own ideology. But I think that's kind of the nature of people in general. Well, I think that that is symbolic for many things. I think that he uses that as a tool to analyze the way we as consumers even now will boycott one place but then are still supporting another place you know we want fair wages but then we'll purchase stuff from sorry but sheen as an example you know which are known um what's the word factories to give people 10 cents an hour you know so it's like while we are actively trying not actively maybe but maybe actively trying to resist. We're still consuming literally that is what she's doing. She's resisting while consuming. So it's really hard and it shows it doesn't show how difficult it is but it makes you realize like how difficult it is. You know we switch to plast we switch to no plastic bags at the grocery store. Meanwhile, okay, well they made plastic bags 10,000 times thicker. How many of us forget them? you do order pickup. You don't have another option but the stupid plastic bags that are like 15,000 times thick, you know. So, it's like I'm going off tangent here, but you know, these acts of resistance while still contributing to the problem. Yeah. So, it's not meant as like a literal thing, but a symbolic device. Yeah. And I would agree with you and I think that's why I said I think that Gregory Magcguire was doing that intentionally to kind of show that even Alphaba who you know we can see as being this like you know symbol of the resistance or someone who we don't expect to make those choices still does because they're still working within a corrupt system in general. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Mhm. Like turn off your turn off your lights at 5:00 to save us energy. Meanwhile, there's empty corporate offices that run lights all day night long because I don't want thieves. Oh, okay. Feel like I'm chipping away at the little tiny piece of ice when there's a giant iceberg. How many how many symbolisms can I say? H Yeah. But really, I feel like I feel like people could feel like that's a plot hole, but it's not. It's intentional. Exactly. Yeah. And so like it made me mad but then I was like okay that's like why you know what I mean? Um and so I think that that is how the book made me feel. It made me feel mad and then I was like that's why right? And so and so I think that was the point you know that was the point. Yeah. So was wicked the book what you expected? Yes. Only because I was coached on it. Not specifically, but like given fair warning. So, I did expect it to be political and um way heavier than the movies and everything. What about you? Um I don't know how I felt the first So, the first time I read it, I read it after I saw the play the first time. Um and honestly, I don't remember at all like how I felt about it. I don't remember if I read it and I was like, "Oh, this is crazy." Or if I read it and I was like, "Okay, whatever." you know, like I have no idea. This time around, I definitely like same as you, like I knew it was going to be a lot more political than the movies in the play. So, I wasn't necessarily shocked. I think what I was more shocked about was like the level of like explicit violence that was woven throughout. Yeah. Um, you know, cuz we're dealing with essentially colonization, genocide. Um, you know, those are some big topics. Outright murder. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, I guess I didn't I knew it would be political. I didn't realize that it would be that much like on page violence. And so, I guess like be warned. You've been warned. Um, and so, yeah, I was definitely surprised by that. And in that way, it wasn't what I expected, but otherwise, I think yes. Also, I didn't really remember, as we talked about before, like the complexity of Alphaba's character. And I think it's easy to make her one-dimensional. It's easy to make her one-dimensional because she's, as you said before, you know, kind of it's easy to make her like the martyr to the cause, the, you know, revolutionary with very uh tunnel vision thinking. And at the end of the day, like she's an individual person with her own agenda also. Yeah. Um and so that was unexpected for me too. Yeah. So moving off of that, were Alphaba and Glenda's characters what you expected? H not exactly. Um, obviously Alphabo's character is understandably more hardened and beaten down in a way than the movie and the musical portray. But yeah, and like I said, she's ultimately tra traumatized by some of the stuff that happens and she has to confront she tries her best to confront these issues with constant resistance, you know. So she's kind of like has multiple battles as most of us do trying to fight this resistance trying to get some peace for the atrocities that happened to you or you were a part of and you know getting that full well-rounded character. I think that in the movie especially and as we're seeing with the merchandise, they make Alphaba's character extremely sellable, um, you know, and very G G-rated for the kids, you know, and I actually like that choice, which we'll talk a lot about in when we do the movie wrap-up. But I do like how they water down Alphaba in a way in the movies and the musical to make her more digestible for people and to give that thought. It's just like a taster of the thoughts and the things that Gregor Gregory and Magguire want you to think about of, you know, is she wicked? Is it easy to say that? Is it cut and dry? So, was it what I was expecting? Yeah. But also, no. You know what I mean? And then Glenda

mostly what I thought. Um, it I don't feel like it was built up too much more except that we could see that she knows the bad stuff that's happening now. She's not super ditzy and naive. She refuses at the beginning like, well, she she kind of like I love that. I actually really liked their relationship, Glenda and Alphabuz while they were at college because Alphaba got Glenda thinking like literally because Alphaba or because Glenda was something like well I just read the words I don't think anything after that you know and Alphaba's like what that's weird. Um, and she's like, "Oh, huh." So, then she gets to thinking. So, she can see, you know, the injustices that are happening now and she can't be so ignorant to them anymore, which I think often times kind of happens to people like going to college and stuff is like, "Oh crap." You know, you're faced with these things. Yeah. And she makes her choices and Alphaba makes her choices and it's not surprising where it goes even though I want it to be different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely thought, you know, I already briefly talked about it, but I thought Alphaba's character was definitely a little bit more more morally gray, I guess, would be a good way to put it um in the book than I expected. Uh Galinda's character was more minor in the book than I expected. Yeah. um I expected her to be more present and um she kind of just wasn't like she was relevant, you know, during the college years and then briefly for a little interlude there at the end or nearing the end. Um but generally speaking, she was a college friend who, you know, they shared that time together and then they had, you know, the kurfuffle over the shoes. Um, but other than that, it's, you know, Glenda chose, and we know this from all the rest of it, chose to, you know, kind of almost turn a blind eye to the atrocities and, um, you know, kind of become part of the machine. And obviously, Alphaba represents the other side of that coin, you know, the resistance side. Um, while still being able to kind of understand each other's viewpoint. And so I did appreciate their relationship as well, but I feel like in the book I almost kind of would have liked a little bit more of Glinda's perspective. Yeah. Very surface level still. Yeah. I don't know if that'll change if we'll get more of it, you know, in the other books moving forward. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see. Yeah. Yeah. because I do appreciate Galinda's or Glenda's um her actions, her perspective, and her character because I think it represents the majority of people. Yeah. And the choices that most people would make. And so, in my opinion, it's more realistic than, you know, not everyone can be a revolutionary, right? And so, um I think that I would like to see more from her. Yeah. I mean, my prediction would be randomly that there's more to that story. Or maybe that's just my hopes, you know? I hope we get more more perspective from her, more fleshed out uh person because we see little like we see little moments. We see that it's a front that she puts on, you know, cuz she has behind closed doors, she's Alphaba's friend when she's her roommate, but then, you know, they are caddyy and invite her over to their summer house, you know, and she's like making fun of her and fun of people's faces, but then behind closed doors, she's considers her a friend. So, and that, well, I'm not justifying that. It's not good. But I want to see I want to see her grow as a person, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That personal development archetype. Yeah. I think it's almost like a weird flip-flop. It's like they made Glenda's character more complex and more present for the movie and the play and they made Alphaba less complex for the movie and the play. It's It's almost like interesting a weird It's like they felt like they needed to balance it out or at least that's how it feels to me because the book is predominantly Alphaba's perspective in life. Like that's what it's about. Um, and so yeah, I feel like they almost wanted to make it more about just their relationship instead of going off on and just telling a whole story about Alphaba's life where Glenda's just a kind of minor character, you know. I did really like her comedic relief though. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I did appreciate that. And it's in the movie also, you know. Yeah. Yeah. She's important. I agree. Yeah. I will say honestly the most surprising thing about the book was that Fiero was vastly different than the music and the and the I could just say the media. I don't know what can I say that's easier than the other forms of media. Yeah. Um than what Hollywood did. There is no love triangle between Alphaba, Glenda, and Fiero. So that was crazy to me. Um so I and I yeah that that was interesting you know so hey and then also same thing with Bach who is very very different in the books also and actually likable a little weird at first but then likable. So what were some like philosophical questions or topics that you thought that Wicked brought up? um you know and I feel like by nature these will or may like overlap with political topics but um what did you think were your top three that you pulled away or that you'd like to talk about? M religion with religious control. Mhm. Existential expectations just ex existential thoughts in general honestly. Um nature versus nurture. [Music] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I think that, you know, I included it here just so they can get a mention, but I think that, you know, the overarching philosophical question of this whole thing is good versus evil. Yeah. Okay. So, just so that we're saying that, I'm not including it in my top three, but I feel like it needs to be here, you know. Um, that's the question that we should be asking ourselves throughout, right? And who gets to decide what's good and evil? Yeah. Um, so I put a religious one, too, but it was a little different. I said, "Do we need religion or something to believe in in order to carry on?" Um, so that's the philosophical question there. Um, another one was who gets to decide someone's life value or rights and access. So it's like this idea idea that humanity exists on a spectrum of like worthiness and unworthiness and who gets to decide where people or in this case animals exist on that spectrum and then what how does that translate to the value that they get? You know what I mean? Yeah. Um and then I put is violence justified when for the greater good? H

yeah. So did you have anything more to say about like the religious aspect? Like do you want to extrapolate on that at all? Yeah. Sorry I just did my themes. I didn't do the actual questions pose. Okay. Um you know we hear a lot about the the othering of different communities within Oz and because of their different religious beliefs. We hear Alphaba's internal monologue a lot about different religions and the control that they can create and cause. I there's so much there's just so much. Well, yeah, because Alphaba is a, you know, self-proclaimed atheist, so she doesn't um subscribe to any religion. And then you have her, you know, her father who is the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I thought his characterist extremist and I think that his character was really interesting because he's a missionary who essentially is going to these um you know into these different parts of Oz to these different cultures and trying to convert them. That's his you know whole life's mission if you will and it that's extremely problematic I think we can all kind of admit at this point in time. Yeah. Um because by doing so, right, you're contributing to essentially like the colonization of these different types of people who have their own culture. Yeah. And perhaps their own religious beliefs and whatnot. Um and so I thought that was really interesting. But on the flip side of that, the other thing that I thought that was fascinating about this world that Gregory Magcguire built was that Nessa Rose being, you know, the she follows in his footsteps and becomes very very religious as well, she actually uses that influence to secede Munchkin Land from the I guess empire, the rest of the empire. Yeah. um and ultimately doesn't really do too much good either depending on you know what what side you're on. However, she did use it to rebel against the powers that be. So I was like well that's kind of fascinating too. So it kind of shows how like religion can have such a vast influence on politics in a lot of different ways. Yeah. Yeah.

Ah, it's just it's a lot you think about the parallels that are currently going on right now. It's just really wild. So, it's just wild time. Mhm. And then as far as I didn't get too much farther than do we need religion or something to believe in in order to carry on. I thought that that was just a really like interesting question um that was posed at some point. I don't remember who brought it up, but it's just this idea that if we didn't have a, you know, some type of moral compass, and I think both of us coming from a, you know, religious upbringing can kind of relate to this. It's like you can have a moral compass and not subscribe to any one particular organized religion. Yes, that's a possibility. But I think there's this idea that no, you do have to have like this solid set like Yeah. like something to quote unquote believe in that gives you these rules to follow so that you can like maintain order in society, you know. Yeah. And then what I take from this book and what they gather is that and what I've seen in life is that some people do need that you know, they need to be told, "Don't kill this person or you'll go to the fiery place," which like fiery place. I just I just don't need to be told not to do that. You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's just Yeah, it's an interesting question that if if people haven't thought about that in their life before, it's a good way to get it in your brain to think about it. H Yeah. Yeah. What was what was your second question? I don't remember. Well, your first was religion. What was your second one? Oh, uh just her existential crisis that you know that she has. She kind of goes on a lot of philosophical ramblings, if you will. Oh, totally. For sure. And I put this in my critiques, but I could talk about it now because I was watching some people's reviews of the book, and it seemed like there was a lot of people that were frustrated with the way his characters almost get to the point with all these things that we're talking about, including, you know, existentialism and good and evil. Like, he never clearly gives anybody a definitive answer. M and people get mad about that with this book, but I do believe that is 1,000% intentional. I think he's leaving you the trail of breadcrumbs to then take it upon yourself to explore these ideas in your real life within the book wherever it have you. It's just to spark the conversation, to spark the thought. Well, because imagine if he made Alphaba not just question these things and go off on her, you know, philosophical kind of like, you know, thoughts or ramblings or whatever, but made her definitive in her belief system for everything. Yeah. Then it would just feel like he was just driving home a specific agenda instead of giving characters their own free will. You know what I mean? And that would not come off. I feel like people would hate that probably more. You know what I mean? Yeah. Mhm. You could just say, "And then Alphaba realized, don't just be told what to do and think for yourself." The end. Great. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then what was your third question again? I just want to make sure that I remember all of them. Uh nature versus nurture, which is kind of a little bit, you know, more touching on the good versus evil. Are people born evil or are they thrust into it? Is it nature that you're just intrinsically born to be evil? Is it nurture because you have this person who is green with sharp teeth who bites anybody that comes near her? You know, is was she born evil incarnate? You know, is it is it that simple? Is it things that happen to her like the way she is treated by Madame Marble that cause her to react in such a way on her deathbed? You know, so all those questions are coming up as we're seeing with all the characters. Mhm. Well, and I think it's also like that makes you kind of like ask that question of like who gets to decide to decide what's good and evil in the first place. Yeah. And then who get who gets to put different people or animals in those boxes, right? Um I'll just share one of my quotes now because I feel like it was really interesting and was one of her philosophical ramblings. Yeah. Um for who was enthralled to whom really? And could it ever be known? Each agent working in collusion and antagonism like the cold and the sun alike creating a deadly spear of ice. Was the wizard a charlatan, a fraud, a desperate of merely human power and failure? Did he control the adepts Nessa Rose and Glenda and an unnamed third? For it surely wasn't Elfie, or was it only put to him by Madame Morble that he did to assuage his obvious ego, his appetite for the semblance of power? So, it's like this idea that it's like in Alphaba's mind, cuz she's, you know, this is from her perspective. This is what she's thinking. She's thinking like surely I couldn't be the third adept that you know Madame Marble wanted to have like if fate is playing out and Nessa Rose is you know fitting into her position you know Glenda is fitting into her position by all uh I'd say logical reasoning that the reader should have that means that Alphaba is fulfilling the prophecy of exactly who she's meant to become. Yeah. um for good or bad, right? And so she's saying like I mean that's really asking that same question like is she inherently good or evil or is she just fulfilling the you know literal or figurative prophecy of this political agenda that's playing out and she just happens to be the one there at the time to fill in that blank. Yeah. That whole like existential monologue that she has where she's just like wait am I even who I am? Am I just a pawn? Do I actually feel these ways that I'm feeling? You know, and people in her life kind of call her a bit of a conspiracy theorist or um Oh, there she goes again on her. You know, uh what is it called? Um feeling like everybody's watching you. What's that word? Oh, like paranoia. Paranoia. They think that she's very paranoid because she has these ramblings and such. Um, and it's like, well, she paranoid. Is she looking at things and trying to puzzle them together and figure them out cuz that is Yeah. Yeah. Is I mean, is that what's going on? Yeah. Like is she just zoom I think it's like is she just zooming out you know and realizing that even if she's playing the part of you know the resistance even if she is playing the part of the Katniss Everdine in this scheme right there always has to be someone playing that part because it's part of like a whole like how do I explain this? It's like it's part of a whole story and someone needs to fill in that blank because you can't have the good without the evil. You can't have the evil without the good. And so she's like, "Where does that leave me?" You know? Yeah. It's weird, I guess, also seeing a character kind of have that moment of self-realization that they're a piece in the story, a large piece in the story. They're almost like, "Oh, I realizing I'm a chess piece, you know? Am I a chess piece? Am I just being delusional?" you know, having that inner monologue like, whoa, hang on, you know, am I playing into their hand like how do I feel? How do I really feel? Yeah. Well, yeah. It's like, you know, talk about philosophical questions. It's bringing up like the philosophical question of free will in general, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That too. Yep. Yeah. Free like free will and like the illusion of choice also. Um, so you know, hey, if you want to be up at night thinking about these things, read this book. Yeah. Hey, I I wasn't cuz I've already thought about them all my life. So, yeah, probably too young, but hey, wasn't news to me. So, I feel like we've already covered two of mine, but my last one is violence justified for the greater good. Yeah. Like I feel like this question I loved how it played out between specifically her discussion with Fiero because she's saying by you being complacent, you're actually more evil than I am as someone who's willing to commit acts of violence for the greater good. and he's saying no by you going and you know let's say in her assassination attempt of Madame Morble let's say that that actually worked out right by you going and killing someone that is worse than me doing nothing and so yeah again it's a phil philosophical debate like at what point does you know do the ends justify the means is violence ever okay to you know let's say liberate a group of people etc and I liked that there was like two people in love who were having this debate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a tale as old of time. A tale as old as time. It's it's war. Who is wrong and who is right and who gets to decide? Mhm. It's We've had this happen in the Hunger Games series, you know. Did some of the things that happen that were bad and unjust, was it for the greater good, you know? Mhm. Well, yeah. It's like, you know, Nessa Rose seceding Munchkin Land from the Empire and then choosing to cage sentient animals. Yep. It's the round and round we go because, you know, and yeah, it's we could go all night. We could go all night. Um, okay. So, let's move on. So, we'll just leave you guys with those questions just in case that wasn't enough. Okay. Let's move on to our political questions. Yep. Okay. All right. Light-hearted. Just kidding. Not yet. Not yet. We're not there yet. Um Okay. So, what were three of the political problems or topics that you thought this book specifically, Wicked, book one, brought to the forefront that you thought were important? The othering of different lands in order to take advantage of their goods. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Good old xenophobia to justify colonization. Yeah. Yep. Yep. You want to go back and forth? You go. Sure. We'll just go back and forth with the depressing topics.

Um, so my first one was equity versus equality. Um, and the reason why I put that and I thought it was really fascinating is because one of the ways that like this is just an example, but one of the ways that um, you know, the regime or whatever you want to call them justified not allowing animals to do things like teach anymore, for example, was because of their inability to hold a pencil. Yeah. Because lots of animals, right, like don't have opposable thumbs. like they have hooves or like whatever. So to me, what was really underneath the layers of that was this idea that equality is giving everyone a pencil to write with, right? That's not equity though, right? And so and then using their quote unquote inability to write because the only implement you're giving them to write with is a pencil that only a human hands in this case can hold and then using that to justify policy. Yeah. Mhm. Um, so yeah, that was my first one. What was your second one? Um, the v the villainization and oftentimes in the name of religion. Um, wait, I just said the same thing over and over again. I just ordered a different cool. Well, also the villainization of other lands to destroy and utilize their space, but it's very similar to what I just said. But yeah, it's a heavy theme. um we see them in different ways because we see the the othering and the villainization of some lands in order to take over their goods. We see it with the road being built, right? The yellow brick road because it's the transportation. So, it's the destruction of some land like the outright destruction and destroying of cultures because there's always another reason for it, you know. Well, it's in the name of progress generally, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Mhm. Okay. Um, so my next one is horizontal hostility, which I think was really important here. Um, because it's not just the wizard and his regime keeping everyone down. It's creating discord among all of the different types of people because of this drought, right? And they touch on this a little bit in the movie which I thought was good, right? Where this idea, you know, good old Peter Dinklage. Um, you know, you have to create a when there's scarcity, you create a common enemy. Mhm. So that people can start infighting and blaming each other and blaming that group and instead of blaming the powers that be that are actually causing the problems. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, horizontal hostility, the inability to work together to fight what really needs to be fought because we spend so much time fighting each other. M and if that isn't a lesson for today and the here and now, you know, sorry, but we get so caught up fighting each other horizontally that overall we forget the villains at the top, the 1%, you know, and yeah, we want people want to say books aren't political and things like that, but this is that's a good reminder of like, dude, why why are you fighting each other over semantics when that's not the problem? Well, over semantics are over peanuts, right? It's like I so badly want to keep what little I have that I'm going to do my best to make sure you don't have anything instead of working with you to hopefully get more from the actual people who are stealing from us. Yeah.

What a page. I'm holding myself back, guys. I'm holding it back. Okay. What was your third polic? I mean, kind of building off of that is accepting the higher ruling class without questioning, silencing the loud voices as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, my third one was very similar. Yeah. Yeah. U, I put kind of like the really obvious dichotomy between theory and action and complacency and resistance. So very similar in the way that it's like

like trying to figure out how to say this. It's like fear is really strong, right? It's like a really effective way to control groups of people. Um and so it's this idea that even if people understand the problems and what's going on, it's like Glenda. It's Glenda. It's Fiero, right? It's like it's Bach. Yeah, it's all of those characters who it's almost like you can't even really blame them for doing what they do and feeling how they feel because but at the same time you do because you know that they know better and they're not choosing to change it. You know what I mean? Well, and here's the thing. It's because the system knows that people aren't black and white. I think we we as a society like to pretend that everything's black and white and it's simple and it's it's obvious to see problems when the higher powers that be that control the people that control us and what we do and how we live know that every human will react differently to different things. So you have the fear factor going on. the fear factor. Um, so you have the fear, you have you have so many different things that work to make sure that they can stay where they are in their high towers. Mhm. You know, so we get to see that through the different characters. We get to see Bach like, "Ah, it's not that bad. You're fine." Yeah. We Yeah, we have a little less corn than we usually do, but it'll be fine next year, you know. Yeah. I'm just trying to hold on. I'm just trying to have my family, you know. I can't be bothered with that. You have Glenda who is very lyd about everything that knows better but then just conforms and bees a part of it. Then you have Alphaba who is actively trying to resist and be part of the resistance. So well and I think you know I really appreciated Fiero's character because I think he understands this nuance really well. um and he really wants to be part of the resistance but then from a philosophical perspective sees problems with it and I think that that is different. It's different than you know box character of just accepting you know I'm just trying to take care of my family. I can't be bothered with these greater political problems. I'm just lowly me. Yeah. What change can I really make? Right. And then yeah, you have Glinda who understands that she's part of the problem but is willing to overlook that because at the heart of it she's looking out for herself and it benefits her and it benefits her, right? I think that Fiero is different because he's willing to he's willing to rescend a level of his privilege in order to um make the world a better place or for the greater good. But he understands that that can also be problematic. Yeah. Um, and that goes down in their conversation of, you know, is violence acceptable? And I, so I think he's asking like the right questions, right? Like, are you just part of this resistance mission that's blindly told to do things? How does that make it better? Right. It's like the president coin dilemma. I was just thinking that. Yeah. Yeah. The president coin for anybody who read all the Hunger Games, you know. Yeah. It's like in so many societies and in so many wars, are we just replacing one evil for another, right? Are we doing all that work and putting all that stuff out for the same systems to be in place but just called a different name? Right? And so I think that's why to me Fierra was a little bit more interesting of a character and represented that part because I was like he is he's challenging her in a way that makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, hey, all the nervous laughters. Um, so, you know, I had to throw this question in here just for funs. Just for funs. So, based only on this book. So, pretend this book exists in a vacuum and you've read No, you haven't read The Hunger Games. You haven't read Misborn, you haven't met anything. Great. Um, based only on this book alone and its contents, can fictional fantasy books be political? based only on this book. Well, yeah, duh. Um, it's the most obvious one of them all so far. I think of them all. Literally. I mean, yeah. I would dare say it's more political than freaking The Hunger Games are like, you know what I mean? It's like Or maybe it's just different because it's more of the world and not just one country. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know that. Oo. That's a tough question. What's more political, The Hunger Games or Wicked? Ooh, I feel like to me Wicked seems more political because you're dealing with different a lot more, in my opinion, different cultures and like questions about like religion and colonization and stuff like that, which I don't feel like were super present in the Hunger Games. No, Hunger Games religion was just gone. If we're only talking about the political portion, it's

Yeah, it dives deeper into the reasonings and why the why, the how, and the when. So, yeah. Okay. Wicked. It's Yeah, it's more multi-layered, I think. Yeah. Um, but it's also not written for kids. Hunger Games is written for, you know, middle schoolers. Yeah. It's hard to compare in that regard. Yeah. Um, and I think that we've already kind of delved into this, but you know, would you find this to be relevant in relation to real life society and its politics and problems? Oh, yeah. I'm going to go Yeah. Simple, short, sweet answer. Yes. Yeah. We're just going to leave you with that because I feel like you guys can kind of put two and two together. Um, so do you think it's important that art be inspired by reality when it can also influence reality? So, you know, I included this because Gregory Magcguire has a quote in here that says, "Poets are just as responsible for empire building as any other professional hacks." So, that's a quote from Wicked. And I thought that was really interesting because it's something that we don't necessarily talk about a lot and I don't think that we talked a lot about in this conversation either, but this idea that, you know, yeah, art reflects reality, but then it can also influence behavior. Mhm. So, yeah. Yeah. Like, do you have anything to say about that? Like, do you think that that because I feel like that can also be dangerous, but what's less what's more important than that is obviously people being able to have the ability to create art in the first place, right? Yeah. Yeah. That in and of itself is political. I think that what is great, whether it be good or evil, is that it makes it easier to digest for the populace. Like we talked about the musical and the movie, the average person. It does because it's hard for people in general to have a lens zoomed in on the atrocities that are going on in our everyday lives. It's depressing. It's depressing as crap, man. It is. Why do we want to read some of these books to escape reality? So, it makes it easier to dig into some of these themes like an existential crisis, you know, without having one yourself necessarily. Sometimes it sparks it. Hey, what are you going to do? But, um, you know, it just it it helps us think. What are you going to do? It's just everyday Tuesday for me. Um, but it inspires those thoughts and sometimes even I mean obviously this is a very literal piece that we're talking about but sometimes you have the more uh symbolic things that could get like a little just a little spark going spark the conversation. Um where this is a burning fire. So, I mean, I just I think that it's great that we're even given this opportunity to be able to express ourselves and have life imitate art and inspire people to think Yeah. more abstractly.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like my when I was in school for media studies, um, you know, one of my professors used to say all the time is that, you know, media doesn't tell you what to think, but it does tell you what to think about. And that really resonated with me obviously because it's stuck with me all these years. Um, but it made it really easy for me because you know, you know, it's like the whole debate about, you know, should we let kids play video games or will it make them do violent behaviors, right? It's like it's more complicated than that. And I think that it's the same thing, you know? It's like having these conversations and talking about it and creating art about it is in my opinion and I think your opinion and probably a lot of other people's more important to have that ability and put it out there so these conversations can be had than if someone were, you know, like a banned book to tell us that we weren't able to have these conversations at all on the off chance that it might be harmful. Yeah. Mhm. Right. Definitely. Are you excited to read the next one? Son of the next one, son of a witch, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, here's the thing. Honest answer. Not that any of these aren't um Don't you hate when people have to constantly clarify? Honest. My honest opinion. Well, they're all my honest opinion, but nonetheless, um unfiltered. How about that? Yeah. Okay. Not that it's always filtered either, but hey. Okay. Anyways, if I were reading this on my own, not for the podcast, I would have finished Wicked and been done. Oh, interesting. Okay. Not because it's obviously bad. Five, five star, but because I'm like, okay, that's good enough. Sorry. I'm good. You know, um I'm not like left like, oh no, but what's going to happen with I mean like kind of I don't know. I don't know because the way it ends obviously we all know with Alphaba being disappeared and me belted away with the water. I I don't know what's going to happen in the other books. It feels purposely ambiguous. Yeah. I think it could go either way if she comes back or not. Um cuz you know, hey, but I could sleep at night. Does that make sense? Mhm. So, I spoiler alert have seen 20 I have seen I've um I'm 25% into Son of a Witch and I am glad I continued even though it's not like anything crazy necessarily yet, but I'm having a a good time. You know, I'm enjoying it. Okay. Yeah. So, I'm glad I continued for the pod. Was I excited? H I'm like, okay. Like I said, I was kind of like, ah, I'd be done. But yeah, there we go. Yeah. I think for me I I mean obviously I'd continue. That's what I did before. Um I'd continue for sure. I think that I might take a break and then come back. Like maybe read a couple less heavy things and then come back, you know? Yeah. And maybe that's part of it. Yeah. Cuz it's just so heavy it's like Whoa. Yeah, for sure. Um so yeah. No, I'm excited to find out what happens because I truly remember nothing and I do have unanswered questions. And you know, it's like my husband says, "You do love a good political scheme." You know, it's like the same reason why I love Game of Thrones because the tangled webs we weave fascinate me. And um so I think more so than anything else, I'm interested to see like how this plays out politically. Yeah, true. Um the characters. Yes. Because Yeah. technically, you know, quote unquote Alphaba dies in the end, but does she, you know, it's like she just kind of disappears. Like she's not actually allergic to water in the book. She just has an aversion to it. And so it's kind of like what happened there. Not really sure. Um, so I am excited to see what happens with that. But I think more so like I'm more fascinated and interested in what happens with like the political structure moving forward. Um, especially now that like Munchkin Land, you know, is like leaderless. So, they're going to get annexed again by Oz and like, etc., etc., you know. So, yeah, we'll see. Yeah. So, I'm more excited even more now talking it all out. Yeah. You know, also, like I said, I'm hoping that we see more about Glinda's character and see where that goes. For sure. Um, and yeah, whoever the son of a witch is. I mean, we already know, but that was crazy. I actually didn't see that coming at all. I was like, Le's her freaking child. Why did I not remember this? Okay. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. So, what is he gonna do? I don't know. What is this going to be about? We'll see. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So, do you have any quotes that you want to share with the group? Because I did Kindle, so I have a lot of quotes this time, guys. I was doing the paperback and then I switched to Kindle. Oh, hey. People who claim that they're evil are usually no worse than the rest of us. It's people who claim that they're good or in any way better than the rest of us that you have to be wary of. It's that sinister thing like the villain that I didn't like. I thought was the worst in Harry Potter. Um I don't know. That lady, she's the worst. Super evil cuz she's sinister. She pretends to be good and sweet and then she's like not. Yeah, for sure. Oh my gosh, my iPad's going to die, so it just got so dark I can't read it. Okay, here we go. Oh no. Um, Galinda didn't see the verdant world through the glass of the carriage. She saw her own reflection instead. It's shameful the way the unionists and the pagans both keep talking up hell for intimidation and the airy otherland for reward.

Yep. the confining of animals back onto farms to give the dissatisfied munchkin lander farmers the impression that he's doing something for them and also to provide forced labor for the sinking of useless new wells. It's vile. They believed that a liberal education meant learning to think for themselves. And they were essentially saying that would be bad. So that's interesting. Okay. Um if only people would obey the wizard. Absolutely. There would be abundance. Yep. I got that one. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. only. Oh, that's it's so easy be so easy to blindly follow. That always works out for people. In terms of Elfie's imprisonment as an unwilling traitor, as an exiled bond, as a hapless mother, as a failed insurrectionist, as a witch in disguise, remained unchanged. H

I never use the words humanist or humanitarian as it seems to me that to be human is to be capable of the most heinous crimes in nature. That's why I call myself a witch now. The wicked witch of the west if you want the full glory of it. As long as people are going to call you a lunatic anyways, why not get the benefit of it? It liberates you from convention. I like that one. I had that one, too. Yeah. What is worse? Fiero suppressing the idea of personhood or suppressing through torture and incarceration and starvation real living persons.

Okay, this is the last one I'll touch on today. Okay, this is after she bashes uh Madame Mara's head in its statement could be read by all except the carved phoenix who would be looking at it upside down in appreciation of everything you have done. It said this is the trophy. Yeah. Um, yesesh, that was pretty good. Yeah. When the times are a crucible, when the air is full of crisis, she said, "Those who are the most themselves are the victims." Yeah. [Music] Let's see. I think that we already said all the rest of mine. Yep, we did. Okay. Yeah. So, let's see here. I think that, you know, I mean, obviously I think that this was a positive contribution to the canon if we're talking about fantasy, speculative fiction, etc. What about you? Yes. Mhm. Do you have any critiques from yourself or others? Not from me. Uh, just like kind of the stuff that we already talked about, you know, just people being frustrated that it's left ambiguous a lot of times and I find that intentional. Um, kind of like what you were talking about the fact that she's fighting for animals, but she's eating animals. Again, I find that intentional. Um, so nothing else that I could think of. Mhm. What about you? Yeah. No, I um I didn't look up critiques from other people, but yeah, as far as critiques from myself, I honestly Yeah. Like I feel like everything that I found to be a like contradictory or you know any irony or um things you know things that were opposing were all intentional on purpose and so I feel like I can't really critique it because I think at the end of the day that was just you know a literary device that was used to make us feel that way because people are complex And it's messy. This is why we can't just solve all the problems of the world overnight, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any bonus questions? I do. Settle a debate. Is it appropriate for younger audiences? No. Okay. What do we What do we mean by younger? I would say anyone younger than high school. No. Yeah. Um, I would say cuz it's I mean it's violent. It is I mean it also just has a lot of topics that I think for anyone younger than high school, even in high school, probably wouldn't even really be able to understand anyway. So like, you know, I talked to one of my clients about it. She said that she tried to read it in high school and couldn't get into it. And I was like, yeah, I feel like, you know, I would have struggled through it. Um, yeah. But yeah, I mean it's really violent and talks about a lot of adult topics that I think that anyone younger just wouldn't really be able to understand anyway. Yeah, because I think you're still learning and understanding and growing. I mean, we all kind of are still to this day, right? But especially in high school, you're learning all those different like literal political systems. Yeah. You know, so it's hard to read the fantastical element when you're still trying to learn the basic elements as well. Yeah. So, I think for as far as triggers and age appropriate goes, high school if they are super well-versed in all the political themings and stuff, just know that. Here's some trigger warnings. Puppets have sex, animals having sex, animals having sex with people, uh, beastiality, affairs, war, unfiltered racism, and classism. Like, all of these things. Some of it though you're already reading about in your history classes, especially violence and war and everything that you're exposed to as children. Um except the puppet thing. Maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah. But um Oh, that thing was so creepy. That like machine that came around. It was so weird. Um time dragon. But would you benefit from it? I'd say this is best for ages, you know, dare I say 20 and older. You know, like college age and older. Yeah. College age and older to really get the full grasp of it. You know, like my Hunger Games, my daughter feels like she wants to read cuz one of her friends reads it. She's in the fifth grade. Um, and then obviously I took her to the Sunrise and the Reaping release because it was just fun and you're not going over all the stuff. She's not watching the movies or anything yet. And then I for her age I'm just like you won't understand what's going on. Yeah. you know, while unfortunately she learns about violence. She's learning about World War II right now. She's seeing all that stuff going on. So, the violence aspect won't it be a factor? But it's like, would you gain from it what you're supposed to gain from it yet? So, if you remove some of the triggers in here, would you know someone in high school, even though maybe depending on what they read would be fine or what they watch, would they get everything from it? So with that, I say any parent wondering, read it for yourself and decide. Don't just ban books because you feel like it, though, you know? Well, read it for yourself. I think it's hard because it's like obviously, you know, like just to use World War II as an example, it's like if you're learning about World War II um in school, obviously you're going to get a very specific curriculum, we'll say, right? Yeah. Mhm. Um I think guided. Yeah. I think that what value something like Wicked brings to the table would be perhaps like a realization that like this all of those things in history are very multi-layered and complex and depending on what perspective you're, you know, looking at it from or what lens you're examining it through, you can get different things out of it. And so again, I think that that's one of the valuable things about fantasy is to show that I think that for younger audiences, you know, middle school there, you know, you could there's tons of fantasy out there that's more age appropriate that can like let them dip their toes into these ideas without, you know, explicitly um getting into, you know, essentially topics like apartheid for example um you know right in your face you know what I mean um and so I think that I think it's really valuable to show that history you know it's like Hunger Games history's written by the victors right so it's important to see all aspects of stuff but I feel like that wouldn't really be picked up from anyone who's younger anyway so it might be missed yeahhm and if they pick up on it should they be doing that yet like is it too heavy. You know, some of these questions are like it's a little heavy for someone that should just be like having a fun time. Yeah. Speaking from experience, not this book, but if you if you watched our episode, books that traumatized us. Yeah. You know, it can be a little traumatizing to be given information too soon. Mhm. How about that? Well, yeah. It's like what if you not to be a Glenda, I'm not saying that, but age appropriate like you said. I mean, there's but there's so there's so many options. There's so many things, right? It's like maybe wicked later but thrown of glass sooner, right? Like there's there's things cuz it's a lot. It's not just political. It's like we said, religious expectations and evaluations and existential crisises and who am I? Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot in there to unpack. Yeah. Okay. I do have I'm like my my wicked fun facts. My wicked fun facts. Hope it's fun. The wicked fun facts. We're going to do depressing and then we'll do lighthearted. Oh, great. No, not depressing, but just, you know, more serious and then we'll end on a light-hearted note. Okay, great. So, Wicked was inspired by the US involvement in Iraq. Ooh. So Magguire read a newspaper headline in the 1990s after the start of the Persian Gulf War in which the United States and its allies fought Iraqi forces after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. The headline questioned whether Saddam Hussein was quote unquote the new Hitler. And this idea got Magguire thinking about the nature of evil. I can't even talk anymore. Magguire considers the wicked witch of the West to be quote the second most evil character in our collective American subconscious, which is really fascinating. I'm assuming second only to Hitler, right? And he decided that she should be the focus of his novel. I'm like, that's fascinating to me. But again, maybe a little bit politically influenced, dare we say. Yeah, a little bit. Only literally. Literally. Yeah, but only literally, Liz. So, you guys ready for our light-hearted signoff fact? Okay, let's bring it on in. Here we go. A single stage performance of Wicked requires 250 lbs of dry ice to create the fog that fills the stage. Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot. Not a fog machine. They use dry ice every time. I guess that's what this says cuz everything on the internet resources in this drought. That's pretty crazy though. That's pretty crazy. I was like that's kind of fascinating. H wonder if dry ice does better like more intense than a fog machine does. If it Hey people, let us know what the physics are behind that. Well, let's look it up. No, I'm just kidding. All right, you guys. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today in this episode. That wasn't quite as lighthearted as some of our other ones, but hey, it is what it is, you know? Make sure to like, follow, and subscribe. That way you don't miss out on our future episodes. If you haven't yet, I mean, if you made it this far, come on. Come on in. Bring it on in for a little hug. I think we all need it now. Golly. Giving you We're giving you hugs through the interwebs. Make sure to do that. Subscribe and stuff. Listen, we've been talking for like 4 hours cuz we filmed the other episode, too. We're We're tired. Your ears are probably tired. And we'll see you next Tuesday and next Friday. Okay. Bye. [Music]